Skill Sharing Session #2 (Log)

(18:56:24) txopi: hi
(18:57:24) Alster: hey
(18:58:41) didleth: hi
(19:06:00) didleth: the neetung is at 19.00, right?
(19:08:08) Alster: yes, 8 minutes ago. you missed all the fun
(19:08:11) Alster: ;-)
(19:08:19) Alster: we can start anytime
(19:08:55) didleth: Alster: i have logs - not miss anything ;]
(19:09:16) Alster: i hope you have an encrypted partition, too :)
(19:09:22) didleth: everybody sind da? (how say it in englisch? ;P)
(19:09:48) Alster: Is everyone ready/around?
(19:10:00) didleth: well.... I wanted to thing to make pidgin on encrypted partition, but dont now yet how to do this
(19:10:36) Alster: this sounds like a good suggestion for a skill sharing session, hmm?
(19:10:57) txopi: why save the logs in a encrypted partition if we are going to publish them on the internet? :-P
(19:11:04) didleth: ; ) harcesz dont know how to do this
(19:11:13) didleth: i have sewlf find a way
(19:11:20) didleth: only have to have more time
(19:11:32) didleth: lol
(19:12:51) Alster: right, it's not so problematic if there are no real ip addresses on the logs
(19:13:03) Alster: harcesz: are you with us?
(19:13:17) txopi: Alster: ;->
(19:13:45) Alster: by the way, I failed to login to today (my fault only, but I thought it was the system) so I didn'T prepare well
(19:14:10) Alster: meaning, unless one of you did, we do not have an agenda for today.
(19:16:22) didleth: weel, what was last time
(19:16:43) didleth: aaaa... I don't have logs from 11.11 -_-
(19:16:46) Alster: oh harcesz did quite some work on migrating the wiki
(19:19:19) Alster: didleth: the logs are here:
(19:19:38) didleth: but, if I good remember, we wanted to do today bash-commands and screen
(19:19:50) txopi: hi
(19:19:52) txopi: yes
(19:20:17) txopi: today agenda could be:
(19:20:27) txopi: * presentations (not need)
(19:20:38) txopi: * next meeting
(19:21:06) txopi: * skill sharing (we said that today we will do the initial pack: bash, screen and some basic commands)
(19:21:10) txopi: END.
(19:21:41) Alster: ah thanks for drafting todays' agenda, txopi :)
(19:21:49) Alster: looks good to me
(19:21:56) didleth: for me ok
(19:21:59) Alster: anyone wants to add anything?
(19:22:04) Alster: harcesz: ?
(19:22:06) didleth: but... txopi and alle andere: 
(19:23:00) txopi: [off-topic] what it meand "andere" in polish? (in basque means miss/woman)
(19:23:03) didleth: maybe should we nadir als thema geben und besprechen, wann wir migrieren sollen?
(19:23:13) didleth: blah
(19:23:22) didleth: sorry txopi, it was german-english
(19:23:37) Alster: txopi: "txopi and alle andere": -> "txopi and everyone else:"
(19:23:37) didleth: how to say in english... everobody another?
(19:23:48) didleth: thx Alster
(19:23:49) txopi: anybody else?
(19:23:50) Alster: actually "everybody else"
(19:24:24) Alster: or just "txopi and everybody:"
(19:24:32) txopi: you want to add the nadir issue to the agenda?
(19:24:34) didleth: and the second one: maybe we should give topic nadir and speak about when we wont migration? just... give nadir-topic
(19:24:51) ***didleth gugle issue
(19:25:34) Alster: so do we do nadir after "next meeting" before "skill sharing"?
(19:25:51) txopi: perfect
(19:25:57) didleth: for me ok
(19:26:04) txopi: * next meeting
(19:26:04) txopi: * nadir issue
(19:26:04) txopi: * skill sharing (we said that today we will do the initial pack: bash, screen and some basic commands)
(19:27:17) didleth: as I remember, it was a people who said there will prepare the eingezelte parts
(19:27:36) didleth: so maybe we should start bash 1?
(19:27:50) didleth: aaaa... next meeting
(19:27:52) didleth: ok sorry
(19:29:41) txopi: next week i can't meet
(19:29:45) Alster: we should also have at least the second part of this again: 
(19:29:47) Alster: # Upcoming Skill Sharing sessions 
(19:29:47) Alster: ** Which sessions do we actually want/need?
(19:29:47) Alster: Please add your suggestions to KosmosSkillSharing.
(19:29:47) Alster: ** Which sessions will be next?
(19:30:28) txopi: i have to make a videoconference and i'm trying to connect with a guy at mexico right now
(19:30:43) txopi: i haven't prepared my speech and i will be fulltime on that
(19:31:00) txopi: so if you want to meet next week is ok for me (i will read the logs)
(19:31:11) txopi: but i prefer if we jump one week
(19:31:13) didleth: hmm... if I can suggest something...I thing there is better when people who know kosmos and administration very well make decision about this, becuose they heve better what we really need to learn
(19:31:18) txopi: so i can participate
(19:31:43) didleth: for me next week is ok only in tuesday, thursday and wednesday
(19:31:53) didleth: so for me jump a week is ok
(19:31:59) Alster: sorry to interrupt you, i'm still adding to the agenda
(19:32:26) txopi: Alster, those points before or after Next meeting?
(19:32:32) Alster: i'D liek this part, too, i think we should always have it, if only it ends up with defining who puts the logs on the wiki... # Do we want moderation, a summary or IRC logs of the meeting? If so, who volunteers to do it?
(19:33:06) didleth: Alster: I can put logs on wiki
(19:33:33) Alster:
(19:34:13) txopi: agenda proposition:
(19:34:14) txopi: ** Do we want moderation, a summary or IRC logs of the meeting? If so, who volunteers to do it?
(19:34:14) txopi: ** Which sessions do we actually want/need?
(19:34:14) txopi: ** Which sessions will be next?
(19:34:14) txopi: ** Next meeting
(19:34:14) txopi: ** Nadir issue
(19:34:15) txopi: ** Skill sharing (we said that today we will do the initial pack: bash, screen and some basic commands)
(19:34:43) txopi: first of all i think that we should define the agenda of today
(19:34:48) didleth: I belive its good to have a logs from everyone session - maybe someone will want to join us later, and we don't have to repeat this all
(19:34:52) txopi: are you agree with my proposal
(19:34:54) txopi: changes?
(19:35:04) didleth: hmm... agenda for me is oj
(19:35:05) didleth: ok
(19:35:19) Alster: ok for me, too, i just updated it
(19:35:26) Alster:
(19:35:33) didleth: I should its end of agenda, that why I'm talking about logs ;-)
(19:36:41) Alster: so i think the first topic is done, since didleth kindly volunteered to take care of the logs
(19:37:27) didleth: Alster: just paste them to wiki and deleted who/where/when comes, right?
(19:37:51) Alster: didleth: exactly
(19:37:55) didleth: ok
(19:38:12) Alster: and if you have more time, you could also draft next meetings' agenda form it
(19:38:26) Alster: but only then
(19:38:30) Alster: i think we can skip "** Which sessions do we actually want/need?", we already discussed this last time
(19:38:43) Alster: what do you think about this?
(19:38:57) txopi: i agree
(19:39:12) Alster: sorry if i tend to be a bureaucrat
(19:39:16) txopi: but i thought that that point was a general one
(19:39:16) didleth: I thing you know better hat session we need :p
(19:39:22) didleth: *what
(19:39:22) Alster: you know, i'm german ;-)
(19:39:46) Alster: ok, so i'll remove it off the agenda.
(19:39:49) didleth: Ordnung muss sein ;P
(19:40:41) txopi: everybody but i talk german here?
(19:40:59) Alster: not me
(19:41:05) Alster:
(19:41:23) didleth: txopi: what did you meanted?
(19:42:14) Alster: I think we can only decide what to do next after we finished todays' skill sharing sessions, so moved "Upcoming Skill Sharing sessions: Which sessions will be next?" down to the end and made it optional.
(19:42:17) Alster: is this ok with you?
(19:42:20) txopi: <didleth> sorry txopi, it was german-english
(19:42:53) Alster: "Ordnung muss sein" means "order is neccessary", a german idiom
(19:43:00) txopi: i'm basque. alster is german. didleth is plish. am i wrong in something?
(19:43:16) didleth: hehe, well, when I'm tired, I can unbewusst to jump from one language to another... and when I don't want to look to dictionary to find english-word ;-)
(19:43:19) txopi: in polan people speaks polish, isn't it?
(19:43:31) txopi: ah ok
(19:43:33) Alster: hehe
(19:43:35) didleth: txopi: we everybody are earthling ;P
(19:43:53) didleth: txopi: jak chcesz moge mowic po polsku :D
(19:44:02) didleth: (if you want, i can speak polish ;-))
(19:44:15) Alster: not neccessarily
(19:44:19) txopi: didleth: you know speaking german and when you try to speck english sometimes you say words in german. right?
(19:44:27) didleth: ok, so come back to the topic
(19:44:40) didleth: txopi: acactly :]
(19:44:42) txopi: ok
(19:44:50) txopi: back to the topic
(19:44:52) Alster: <Alster> I think we can only decide what to do next after we finished todays' skill sharing sessions, so moved "Upcoming Skill Sharing sessions: Which sessions will be next?" down to the end and made it optional.
(19:45:01) didleth: weel, i know german not well, but better that englsh
(19:45:21) didleth: Alster: +1
(19:45:26) txopi: ok
(19:45:34) Alster: So we're now at: # Next meeting
(19:45:48) txopi: Decider?
(19:46:07) Alster: yes, but that only spans next week
(19:46:13) didleth:
(19:46:36) Alster: nobody moved this to CG yet, right?
(19:47:03) didleth: not yet
(19:47:11) txopi: me no (i still don't know even how)
(19:47:44) didleth: well, I  thing it was not necessary, wen one decider about this dates was done - the next one we can do on CB
(19:47:58) Alster: i agree didleth 
(19:48:07) Alster: but we need the next one, now
(19:48:36) Alster: txopi: if you'd like to suggest a skill sharing session on this, don't hold back ;-)
(19:48:47) didleth: alster: you mind for the week after next week?
(19:49:01) Alster: didleth: fine with me
(19:49:14) didleth: ok, so a will do it now 
(19:49:39) Alster: maybe we should not make a final decision on the next meeting today, since harcesz is not around. but we can already addour votes
(19:49:40) didleth: but maybe we ca put this to next point,  to don't make a break?
(19:50:00) ***harcesz runs is
(19:50:02) harcesz: *in
(19:50:11) harcesz: what, sorry? guess i missed something?
(19:50:12) txopi: Alster, i will problably learn by myselft when we use the CG's function. so don't worry for now
(19:50:14) Alster: ah there he is :)
(19:50:27) Alster: ok txopi :)
(19:50:29) harcesz: I support whatever time decision
(19:50:47) Alster: harcesz: 4.28 AM is ok then?
(19:50:55) txopi: xDD
(19:50:58) harcesz: willdo
(19:51:05) Alster: :-))
(19:51:22) ***harcesz has an constantly shifting day-cycle
(19:51:28) didleth: o harcesz
(19:51:30) didleth: you are alivre
(19:51:45) didleth: so can you decide or its ok for you irc-meeting on irc-pl?:>>
(19:52:01) didleth: (sorry for of topic - but I try catch him since yesterday)
(19:52:36) Alster: harcesz: so, seriously, is it ok for you to not have a meeting next week but only the week after that, i.e. the one starting monday 23.?
(19:52:47) harcesz: whaaaa?
(19:52:50) didleth: btw - only afternoon and evenigs dates are ok?
(19:53:01) harcesz: yep, good enought for me
(19:53:49) Alster: didleth: i can make it throughout the day, but usually somebody always works, but we are few so maybe none of us is bound to normal working hours
(19:54:30) txopi: i also can just in the afternoons
(19:54:46) didleth: yhm, so i put a hour like last time
(19:54:50) txopi: no, sorry, in the evenings
(19:55:00) Alster: ok, thats good to know
(19:55:03) didleth: so... txopi 17.00 is not ok for you?
(19:55:06) txopi: 19:00 or later (sometimes more later)
(19:55:24) Alster: txopi: that's the same on weekends for you?
(19:55:40) Alster: txopi: how about fridays?
(19:56:05) txopi: on fridays i can at 17:00
(19:56:36) txopi: on weekens i can anytime, if i can connect...
(19:56:40) Alster: i'll be fine if we move the decision making on the next meeting to the end of this meeting, so that didleth has some more time to prepare the new meeting planner. actually we could even move it to tomorrow.
(19:57:23) txopi: tomorrow i'll be out all the day in a indyeh meeting
(19:58:04) txopi: and on sunday i will be off-line also all the day but at night late
(19:58:27) Alster: my point was just that we do not need to decide on the next meeting today, and should not rush didleth so much about setting up the new calendar since we already decided not to meet next week
(19:58:39) txopi: i seriously suggest to jump a wole week or continue without me
(19:58:56) didleth: alster: so it will be ok to prepare this for tommorow, and not for right now?
(19:59:10) Alster: at least i _think_ we already decided not to meet next week. sorry if i misunderstood this.
(19:59:31) Alster: didleth: in my opinion, yes
(19:59:47) Alster: txopi, harcesz: does this sound like a good idea?
(19:59:56) txopi: for me is ok
(20:00:03) txopi: of course... :-)
(20:00:15) harcesz: yep
(20:01:23) didleth: so we can go do next point i belive
(20:01:52) Alster: OK, so we will not meet in the upcoming week, but only the one starting Nov 23. Didleth will kindly setup a new decider for us in CG until tomorrow (if possible), and we will then all vote on it during this week, and will then decide on the mailing list when to meet next time.
(20:02:21) didleth: for me great
(20:02:54) Alster: next topic: the mysterious Nadir issue
(20:03:33) txopi: Alster: good summary
(20:04:38) Alster: thanks txopi 
(20:04:43) didleth: so nadir wrote its ok to put kosmos into domU, so we want to migrate this... so maybe i should write him/them and ask when is it ok for them to start this?
(20:05:59) txopi: we will need some weeks to finish skill sharing
(20:06:13) txopi: we can make the migration after if you want
(20:06:20) txopi: or in paralel
(20:06:32) didleth: brb
(20:06:52) txopi: anyway, i think that we should tell to nadir people to prepare the machine when they can
(20:07:37) txopi: we have to make some work before change the site from one machine to the other so to decide the date for nadir's task is not so important right now
(20:07:40) txopi: as far as i see
(20:07:53) Alster: i agree with txopi in the one hand, not all of us are ready to enter a skill sharing session on how to migrate one system to another. On the other hand we need to at least prepare to move off of kosmos soon since the disks are broken and the server can fail any time.
(20:08:13) Alster: and there are still no remote backups
(20:09:24) txopi: i agree with alster that we have to move as soon as possible
(20:09:51) txopi: but we have so many things to do..
(20:10:02) Alster: so my suggestion is we should have the skill sharing session on the server migration rather sooner than later. this may mean not everyone of us will be able to grasp its more complex steps. but at least preparing a (secondary) working system seems more urgent.
(20:11:00) Alster: actually the only urgent thing is to make offsite backups. preparing a secondary server can still be done after kosmos failed then.
(20:11:09) Alster: but this would mean more downtime
(20:11:34) txopi: i agree
(20:11:54) txopi: i have found a place to store eh's backups
(20:12:02) Alster: :))
(20:12:07) txopi: hey_neken's hard disc :-)
(20:12:27) txopi: we could ser it quickly
(20:12:28) txopi: set
(20:12:55) Alster: very well.
(20:13:21) Alster: but let's finish the nadir topic first, i.e. what to respond to them
(20:13:57) txopi: my suggestion: can you prepare it in the next two weeks?
(20:14:35) txopi: again: we need is as soon as possible. if you can set it in the next two weeks would be great
(20:14:56) Alster: i think it's good to both ask them when the DomU will be ready, and to ask them to please setup accounts there for all of us. and to tell them that we may need a couple more weeks until we have completed the migration, even after they setup the new virtual server, since we want to do the migration together
(20:15:22) Alster: we can do the migration whenever you like
(20:15:22) didleth: I just wrote him imc-eh is agree for domU and that we-kosmos people can migrate this, and he/she write its ok and we can do this ('dann machen wir das mal')
(20:16:44) txopi: i think that we should ask them to prepare one account with sudo permissions. the rest should be our task
(20:17:04) didleth: Alster: for me ok, i write them after meeting or tommorow - can I set you a message before I send is, to look or its to understand?
(20:17:54) txopi: the name of the account doesn't really care because we can quickly create all we need and then delete it
(20:18:04) txopi: Alster, what do you think?
(20:19:07) Alster: didleth: yes, you're welcome to send me your drfated email
(20:19:31) didleth: thx Alster :]
(20:19:34) Alster: txopi: right
(20:19:50) didleth: I should buy you bear ;]
(20:20:01) Alster: a dancing bear?
(20:20:50) didleth: Bier auf deutsch ;P
(20:21:17) Alster: so is everyone really happy with the Dom U option? Of course you could also consider to move to another readical tech collective if you would prefer that.
(20:21:33) Alster: but they might ask for donations.
(20:21:49) Alster: i'm just trying to make sure you have considered all your options
(20:22:02) Alster: personally i think the DomU is a kind offer and a good choice.
(20:22:07) didleth: Alster: well, both of imcs will migrate to drupal
(20:22:17) didleth: but now when we are still on mir
(20:22:23) didleth: kosmos isa good solution
(20:22:42) didleth: and we don't know or we migrate to drupal before the discs are failed
(20:23:01) didleth: kosmos/domU I meanted
(20:23:16) Alster: didleth: when you migrate from mir to drupal is not really realted to the question where you are hosted.
(20:23:22) txopi: we have considered another options, and we don't see more options :-)
(20:23:37) txopi: i think that nadir option is good
(20:23:51) didleth: :-/ I don't understand
(20:24:02) txopi: didleth: we still don't know if both imc will change to drupal
(20:24:24) didleth: txopi: yes, that is what I meanted
(20:24:56) didleth: (and when and where)
(20:25:00) txopi: perhaps tomorrow iindyeh will decide to migrate to drupal or perhaps later or perhaps will decide another thing or perhaps will not decide nothing yet
(20:25:13) txopi: ok
(20:25:28) Alster: didleth: it does not make a remarkable difference whether you first move the website to another server, or whether you first change from Mir to drupal. these steps do not depend on each other.
(20:25:30) didleth: what I wanted to say is: how long we are on mir, kosmos/domU is ok for us
(20:26:19) didleth: Alster: really? O_o but nevermind, it's harceszs/szczyms toy ;]
(20:26:54) Alster: didleth: I agree with you, as long as you are using Mir, being hosted on kosmos or the DomU is both fine.
(20:27:26) txopi: didleth, if the Xen machine is powerful enought, perhaps imc-eh and imc-po can run drupal there (in the future)
(20:27:35) Alster: I bet harcesz missed some backlog?
(20:28:05) txopi: we have to move yes or yest, so all that is not so important right now. if kosmos makes crack, all will be a shit
(20:28:55) didleth: so I should just write Nadir to give us one root-accont and tell we need more time, right?
(20:29:23) txopi: i think that ssh&screen&irssi conbination would be good for harcesz 
(20:29:47) txopi: didleth: is ok form e
(20:29:49) ***Alster agrees with txopi 
(20:29:52) txopi: didleth: is ok for me
(20:30:22) Alster: didleth: you can send them you ssh public key and have them install it for the root account, or for your new account on the DomU
(20:30:31) txopi: Alster, witch part, the shit part? ;-)
(20:30:42) Alster: txopi: both :)
(20:31:04) Alster: i.e. that and the ssh&screen&irssi conbination
(20:31:29) didleth: Alster: I can try
(20:32:48) Alster: didleth: if you prefer, we can go over it together later today or along the upcoming days. I suggested this since I assume nadir will prefer you to access the server with SSH key authentication that by password. But I can be wrong.
(20:33:06) Alster: "thaN by password"
(20:33:52) Alster: didleth: well, ignore me, just do it the way you just suggested. it'll be fine. sorry for making it more complicated.
(20:34:40) Alster: i think this is perfect: <didleth> so I should just write Nadir to give us one root-accont and tell we need more time, right?
(20:34:58) didleth: Alster: ok
(20:35:20) didleth: so can we go to next point?
(20:35:28) txopi: yes
(20:35:29) didleth: *of agenda
(20:35:53) Alster: # Skill Sharing (we said that today we will do the initial pack: bash, screen and some basic commands)
(20:36:17) Alster: txopi: which ones did you say you'd take on, again?
(20:36:25) txopi: i can start with bash
(20:36:27) Alster: bash + basic commands, right?
(20:36:31) txopi: yes
(20:36:43) Alster: great :)
(20:36:51) txopi: i can paste some notes here
(20:36:53) ***Alster leans back and watches the show ;-)
(20:37:29) txopi: Alster: if there is something wrong, please say "stop" and help me ok?
(20:37:42) Alster: sure
(20:37:50) Alster: in case i realize it
(20:38:21) txopi: didleth: if you don't understand something or need to ask whatever, also say "stop", "wait" or something like that please
(20:38:31) didleth: ok
(20:38:51) txopi: ********************************************************
(20:38:51) txopi: bash
(20:38:51) txopi: ********************************************************
(20:39:09) txopi: bash is the name of a kind of unix/linux shell
(20:39:10) txopi: they are more, like sh (older one), ksh (korned shell), etc.
(20:39:10) txopi: they are very similar but they have some syntax diferences
(20:39:10) txopi: the most common (and default in most of gnu distributions) is bash
(20:39:30) txopi: if you type "ls" you get a list of the files in the directory you are located
(20:39:30) txopi: if you type "ls > list.txt" you redirect the output of the ls command to a file and overwrite it
(20:39:31) txopi: if you type "ls >> list.txt" you do the same but you add the output to the end of the file (don't overwrite)
(20:39:34) txopi: ls is a commans (a program) and is called the same way in all the shells (sh, bash, ksh...)
(20:39:36) txopi: the > operator is something of bash, and in other shells perhaps you will have to write something different to get the same result
(20:40:11) didleth: stop
(20:40:18) didleth: (20:39:30) txopi: if you type "ls > list.txt" you redirect the output of the ls command to a file and overwrite it
(20:40:29) ***txopi changes the plan. didleth, if you are ready, say "ok", "continue" or something similar
(20:40:42) didleth: can you say it in another word?
(20:40:46) txopi: yes
(20:41:13) txopi: when you type a command, you get the result (the output) in the screen
(20:41:25) didleth: ok
(20:41:31) txopi: example:
(20:41:32) txopi: $ ls
(20:41:32) txopi:
(20:41:41) didleth: yes, and in .txt?
(20:42:00) didleth: you did meanted, it wopuld be write in some .txt file?
(20:42:27) txopi: if you use the > function, the output of the previous command is redirected not to the screen but to the file you mention
(20:42:35) txopi: yes
(20:42:48) didleth: ok I understand
(20:42:48) txopi: $ ls > list.txt
(20:42:49) txopi: $
(20:42:59) didleth: sprytne ;]
(20:43:00) didleth: ok
(20:43:02) txopi: this command seems that doesn't do nothing
(20:43:19) txopi: but it creates a file with the output of the ls
(20:43:29) txopi: sprytne?
(20:43:44) didleth: hehe, I use it always to look something when i didn't now wehre i put some files ;] 
(20:44:11) txopi: he he
(20:44:13) didleth: txopi: nevermind, it just polish world I don't know how good to translate in english ;]
(20:44:20) txopi: ok
(20:44:23) txopi: continue?
(20:44:26) didleth: yes
(20:45:08) txopi: well, lets start with the shell commands:
(20:45:08) txopi: "ls"
(20:45:08) txopi: as we explained it gives you the list of files in the directory (folder) you are located
(20:45:08) txopi: and how you know in wich forder are you located?
(20:45:08) txopi: for that use "pwd"
(20:45:44) txopi: didleth, i suggest you to open a terminal and try the pwd command
(20:45:44) didleth: ok
(20:45:53) didleth: did do this now ;]
(20:45:59) txopi: sample:
(20:45:59) txopi: $ pwd
(20:45:59) txopi: /home/eh/bin
(20:45:59) txopi: i write "pwd" and the shell return one line with "/home/eh/bin"
(20:45:59) txopi: $
(20:46:26) didleth: ok
(20:46:31) txopi: $ ls
(20:46:31) txopi:
(20:46:33) txopi:
(20:46:35) txopi:
(20:46:37) txopi:
(20:46:39) txopi:
(20:46:39) didleth: ls
(20:46:41) txopi:
(20:46:43) txopi:
(20:46:45) txopi: ls returns just the name of the files
(20:46:47) txopi: ls returns just the name of the files located in the /home/eh/bin directory
(20:46:49) didleth: blah, not here, sorry ;)
(20:46:57) didleth: yhm, yes
(20:47:02) txopi: ok
(20:47:14) txopi: if you want to see more info try this instead:
(20:47:14) txopi: $ ls -l
(20:47:14) txopi: total 72
(20:47:14) txopi: -rwxr-x--x 1 eh eh 1031 Jun 29  2005
(20:47:14) txopi: -rwxr----- 1 eh eh   56 Feb 14  2006
(20:47:14) txopi: -rwxr-x--x 1 eh eh   99 Dec 29  2006
(20:47:16) txopi: -rwxr-x--x 1 eh eh  906 Apr 11  2006
(20:47:18) txopi: -rwxr-x--x 1 eh eh  211 Jun 19  2002
(20:47:20) txopi: -rwx------ 1 eh eh 2537 Sep 15  2005
(20:47:22) txopi: -rwxrw---- 1 eh eh  516 Sep 28  2005
(20:47:24) txopi: -rwxrwx--x 1 eh eh  304 Jan 12  2005
(20:47:26) txopi: -rwxrw---- 1 eh eh  334 May  5  2003
(20:47:28) txopi: -rwx------ 1 eh eh   85 Jun 12  2004
(20:47:32) txopi: -rwxrw---- 1 eh eh   33 Dec 30  2007
(20:47:34) txopi: -rwxr-xr-x 1 eh eh  838 Nov 10  2007
(20:47:36) txopi: -rwxr-x--x 1 eh eh  624 Oct  7 10:10
(20:47:38) txopi: -rwxr-x--x 1 eh eh  141 Oct  9  2005
(20:47:40) txopi: if you want to see the hidden files (those wich name starts with a dot) try this:
(20:47:42) txopi: $ ls -la
(20:47:44) txopi: drwx------  2 txopi txopi   4096 2009-09-19 01:15 etxea
(20:47:46) txopi: drwxr-xr-x  7 txopi txopi   4096 2009-09-19 11:03 .evolution
(20:47:48) txopi: -rw-r--r--  1 txopi txopi    357 2009-09-18 22:09 examples.desktop
(20:47:50) txopi: drwx------  2 txopi txopi   4096 2009-11-10 03:11 .filezilla
(20:47:52) txopi: drwxr-xr-x  2 txopi txopi   4096 2009-10-03 21:02 .fontconfig
(20:47:54) txopi: ls supports are a lot of params, execute "man ls" to check them.
(20:47:56) txopi: as yo can see, como lines estart with the letter "d". that means that they are directories
(20:48:05) txopi: questions about ls?
(20:48:05) didleth: yhm - and ls man or help to have all list what ls is doing whit which of argument, right?
(20:48:17) txopi: right!
(20:48:22) txopi: man ls
(20:48:59) didleth: wait 
(20:49:10) txopi: ok
(20:49:54) didleth: ok, I understed - had only to translate 'directory'
(20:50:02) txopi: ok
(20:50:16) txopi: to navigate throught directories, i mean, to move yourself from one directory to other, you can use "cd" command
(20:50:33) txopi: didleth, you know this command also, isn't it?
(20:50:46) didleth: txopi: one thing I wonder - when you use / before localisation?
(20:51:10) didleth: txopi: yes - and cp, mv and rm (about backups)
(20:51:11) ***harcesz is around and will read the log, but has to do some other stuff as well
(20:51:21) txopi: ok
(20:51:26) didleth: and a little it chmod and chown
(20:51:38) txopi: let me paste one thing and i will answer you
(20:51:44) txopi: perfect
(20:51:55) didleth: but not everything is for me easy - so can I ask something?
(20:51:58) didleth: ok
(20:52:01) txopi: the only thing i'm going to explain about it is that is you don't add any param to it, cd takes you to your home directory
(20:52:01) txopi: "cd" is the same as "cd ~" wich is the same as "cd /home/xxxxxx" (where xxxxxx is your user name)
(20:52:02) txopi: try it:
(20:52:02) txopi: $ pwd
(20:52:02) txopi: /home/eh/bin
(20:52:04) txopi: $ cd
(20:52:06) txopi: $ pwd
(20:52:08) txopi: /home/eh
(20:52:10) txopi: so, this is a quick way to change the directory
(20:52:29) txopi: now, i will answer you about the / symbol in the begining
(20:52:38) didleth: :]
(20:52:56) didleth: I never know, when to use it, and when no
(20:53:28) txopi: they are absolute paths and relative paths
(20:53:55) txopi: execute please "ls /"
(20:54:10) txopi: if will see that there are some directories there
(20:54:22) didleth: $ ls /
(20:54:22) didleth: bin    dev   initrd.img      lost+found  opt   sbin     sys  var
(20:54:22) didleth: boot   etc   initrd.img.old  media       proc  selinux  tmp  vmlinuz
(20:54:22) didleth: cdrom  home  lib             mnt         root  srv      usr  vmlinuz.old
(20:54:26) txopi: home is for user data
(20:54:43) txopi: bin es where commands are located
(20:55:10) txopi: media is where ubuntu mounts cdroms, external hd's, etc
(20:55:26) txopi: inside home they are more directories
(20:55:34) txopi: try this: ls /home
(20:55:43) txopi: don't need to paste the result here
(20:55:51) didleth: yhm, I know
(20:56:01) didleth: and home is default
(20:56:10) didleth: where you are when you are i shell, right
(20:56:10) didleth: ?
(20:56:11) txopi: that will show you more directories/folders
(20:56:22) txopi: more or less
(20:56:23) didleth: *on shell
(20:56:28) didleth: ok
(20:56:42) txopi: the default directory is /home/didleth
(20:56:51) txopi: for the didleth user
(20:56:56) didleth: yhm
(20:57:03) txopi: and for txopi user the default is /home/txopi
(20:57:47) txopi: anyway, i want you to understand that all the content of the machine is into / or into a subdirectory
(20:58:21) txopi: so if i write cd /home/txopi/data/projects/indymedia/kosmos/SkillShare/bash
(20:58:31) didleth: so always after command I have to write / ?
(20:58:33) txopi: i can reach to anyplace like this
(20:58:41) txopi: no :-)
(20:58:45) txopi: let me continue
(20:58:54) didleth: sorry be to noobish ^^'\
(20:59:10) txopi: if you start with / you can reach to anywere
(20:59:11) didleth: (harc. will kill me for this if he will read logs ;P)
(20:59:28) txopi: but you have to write all the path alwais
(21:00:25) txopi: this way is an absolute path
(21:00:36) txopi: you always write all
(21:00:40) didleth: ok
(21:01:00) txopi: but is you doesn't start with /, you are using a relative path
(21:01:04) txopi: example:
(21:01:14) txopi: ls /home
(21:01:21) txopi: this works always
(21:01:34) txopi: it doesn't care were are you located
(21:01:53) txopi: but if you know that you are located at /home/didleth
(21:01:58) didleth: I belive I'm understanding... 
(21:02:13) txopi: instead of 'ls /home' you can wirte just 'ls ..'
(21:02:25) txopi: do you know what it is . and .. ?
(21:02:58) txopi: let me put another example (better than the other :-)
(21:03:03) didleth: . is one directory holder and .. two directory holder - or in diffrent way
(21:03:23) txopi: more or less
(21:03:23) didleth: I always do it bad frist and thatwhy I knwo what was correct ;P
(21:03:33) txopi: . is the directory you are
(21:03:42) txopi: .. is the pather directory
(21:04:01) txopi: $ cd /home
(21:04:12) didleth: yhm, i understand
(21:04:18) txopi: $ ls /home/didleth
(21:04:39) txopi: this works always, it doesn0t care were you are
(21:04:46) txopi: but you can also execute this
(21:04:50) didleth: I can go to /home/didleth from /home/didleth/xyz when I will do cd ..
(21:04:52) didleth: right?
(21:04:53) txopi: $ ls didleth
(21:04:55) txopi: just that
(21:05:00) txopi: and the result is the same
(21:05:16) txopi: why? because you are located at /home and you used a relative path
(21:05:25) txopi: right didleth 
(21:05:30) didleth: ok
(21:05:56) txopi: imagine that you are here /home/txopi/data/projects/indymedia/kosmos/SkillShare/bash
(21:06:13) txopi: what you have to write to go to /home/txopi/data/projects/indymedia/kosmos/SkillShare/screen?
(21:06:35) didleth: and when I want to go 3 or more directory... wait, how to explain it - i'm in /home/didleth/xyz/exaple and I want to go to /home/didleth/ i sholud write cd ../. ?
(21:06:38) txopi: with an absolute path you must write all this: cd /home/txopi/data/projects/indymedia/kosmos/SkillShare/screen
(21:06:52) didleth: no, cd ../..
(21:06:53) didleth: ?
(21:07:04) txopi: but if you are located already at bash directory, you just have to write this: cd ../screen
(21:07:11) txopi: shorter, isn't it?
(21:07:33) txopi: yes: cd ../..
(21:07:41) didleth: yhm
(21:07:45) txopi: ok
(21:07:46) txopi: one more
(21:08:00) txopi: you are located at /home/txopi/data/projects/indymedia/kosmos
(21:08:23) txopi: how you can go to /home/txopi/data/projects/indymedia/kosmos/SkillShare/bash with an absolute path?
(21:08:47) didleth: cd SkillShare/bash   butr with absolute
(21:08:48) didleth: wait
(21:09:01) txopi: yes, but that's relative
(21:09:10) txopi: now the absolute
(21:09:17) didleth: cd /home/txopi/data/projects/indymedia/kosmos/SkillShare/bash with an absolute path?
(21:09:17) didleth: (21:08:47) didleth: cd SkillShare/bash
(21:09:17) didleth: ?
(21:09:24) txopi: yes
(21:09:27) txopi: you got it
(21:09:32) txopi: congratulations!
(21:09:33) didleth: thx :]
(21:10:05) txopi: do you want to talk about file permissions (chmod and chown) or not?
(21:10:08) ***Alster cheers up didleth + txopi 
(21:11:04) didleth: txopi: hmmm... I hate this ;D
(21:11:12) didleth: but it's necessary to understand this
(21:11:35) txopi: we have more commands for later: cat, less, tail, file, df, free, who, w
(21:11:45) txopi: didleth: yes, it is
(21:12:23) didleth: chmod I understand less or more, I have problem how to do this in another way that numbers
(21:12:55) didleth: so some people can do chmod +wr and not in chmod 555, 777 etc
(21:13:20) didleth: so they just give some + or - and it works
(21:13:54) txopi: yes
(21:14:03) txopi: i also forget the numbers
(21:14:17) txopi: in the begining the only way were numbers
(21:14:18) didleth: you have how to make this?
(21:14:44) txopi: but later +-awr were added
(21:14:54) txopi: i don't use numbers
(21:14:58) didleth: awr?
(21:15:10) txopi: i can explain you the other way if you want (is easier)
(21:15:20) didleth: yhm, please
(21:15:33) txopi: with +-awr i mean not-numbers
(21:15:34) txopi: ok
(21:16:15) txopi: $ ls -l
(21:16:19) txopi: -rwxrwx--x 1 eh eh  304 Jan 12  2005
(21:16:36) didleth: wait, or i good remember
(21:17:10) txopi: in unix and linux the files permissions are set in three nevels
(21:17:32) didleth: r- read, w- write - and x?
(21:17:39) txopi: x for execute
(21:17:47) didleth: so wait
(21:18:00) txopi: if the file is a program it has sense to use the x flag
(21:18:09) txopi: didleth, let me explain a bit ok?
(21:18:14) didleth: ok, sory
(21:18:22) txopi: in unix and linux the files permissions are set in three nevels
(21:18:49) txopi: file ownser user, file owner group and the rest of the users
(21:19:12) didleth: ok
(21:19:23) txopi: every file, directory or whatever in linux has a user owner and a group owner
(21:19:28) txopi: -rwxrwx--x 1 eh eh  304 Jan 12  2005
(21:19:33) didleth: ok
(21:19:44) txopi: in this case, the owner user is eh
(21:19:55) txopi: and the group is also eh
(21:20:11) txopi: -rwxrwx--x 1 txopi indyeh  304 Jan 12  2005
(21:20:23) txopi: with this example is better :-)
(21:20:28) didleth: hehehe
(21:20:55) didleth: txopi user and indyeh gruop? ;
(21:21:13) txopi: right
(21:21:46) didleth: txopi can write read execute, indyeh too, and everobody else only execute?:-/
(21:22:04) ***didleth has missunderstood something wrong ; )
(21:22:04) txopi: but who can read that file? just txopi, also anybody into the indyeh group? and the rest users?
(21:22:19) txopi: didleth: right!
(21:22:25) txopi: very well
(21:22:32) didleth: aha, so i did understood ; )
(21:22:47) txopi: ok, i will jump some explanations so
(21:22:58) didleth:  -rwxrwx--x 1 txopi indyeh  304 Jan 12  2005  and what is the '1' after x?
(21:23:04) txopi: and the first - what it means?
(21:23:21) txopi: the size of the file
(21:23:36) didleth: in kb? mb? 
(21:23:53) txopi: don't know!
(21:24:02) didleth: ;)
(21:24:08) txopi: ah no
(21:24:13) txopi: i'm wrong
(21:24:18) didleth: I will check in a exaple 
(21:24:21) txopi: 304 is the size of the file
(21:24:30) txopi: i don't know what is 1
(21:24:32) txopi: forget it
(21:24:35) didleth: ok
(21:24:38) txopi: it isn't important
(21:24:56) txopi: ls has another param that perhaps you will find useful -h
(21:25:01) txopi: try ls -lh
(21:25:21) txopi: ls -l -h
(21:25:24) txopi: ls -h -l
(21:25:27) txopi: ls -hl
(21:25:36) txopi: they do all the same
(21:25:40) didleth: yhm
(21:25:52) didleth: shows files with permissions-reguls
(21:26:00) txopi: gives you the sizes in Human readable format
(21:26:01) didleth: (or how to say in english)
(21:26:26) didleth: k is kb, m is mb?
(21:26:36) txopi: sure
(21:26:47) didleth: ok
(21:26:51) didleth: i understand
(21:27:04) txopi: ok
(21:27:10) Alster: in 'ls -l' output, the number behind the permissions (second field), is the number of objects on the lower level. for a directory, this is the number of objects it contains. for a plain file, it is always '1
(21:27:23) txopi: let me explain now chmod
(21:27:42) txopi: chown is too easy for you and i will jump it :-)
(21:27:46) txopi: thanks Alster 
(21:27:50) didleth: hehe
(21:27:58) txopi: you are our guru!
(21:28:07) didleth: ok but you can explain me chmod in another ay that chmod 777 ?;]
(21:28:31) txopi: chmod <X><Y><Z> filename
(21:28:35) txopi: yes
(21:28:46) ***Alster wasn't even aware that: cd = cd ~
(21:29:06) txopi: <X> can be u (user), g (group) or a (all)
(21:29:17) txopi: <Y> can be + or -
(21:29:32) txopi: <Z> can be r, w or x
(21:30:36) txopi: so "chmod u+x" gives execute permissions of that script to the owner user
(21:30:47) txopi: in our example txopi
(21:31:21) txopi: $ ls -l
(21:31:22) txopi: -rw-rwx--x 1 txopi indyeh  304 Jan 12  2005
(21:31:37) txopi: $ chmod u+x
(21:31:43) txopi: $ ls -l
(21:31:49) txopi: -rwxrwx--x 1 txopi indyeh  304 Jan 12  2005
(21:31:51) didleth: so you have to connect letter wrx with ug and a?
(21:31:52) txopi: ok?
(21:32:03) txopi: yes
(21:32:09) didleth: yhm, ok
(21:32:09) didleth: \
(21:32:17) txopi: u+x
(21:32:23) txopi: u-w
(21:32:35) txopi: g+r
(21:32:52) txopi: do you understand?
(21:33:07) didleth: I belive I understand
(21:33:11) txopi: this combined with chown is all you need to know
(21:33:55) txopi: but of course, everytime you need use "man chmod"
(21:34:02) txopi: i use it sometimes
(21:34:16) didleth: ok, I understand
(21:35:23) txopi: didleth, what it meand the first "-" symbol?
(21:35:48) didleth: wait - i know only thinking how to translate in english
(21:36:28) txopi: - meand file
(21:36:33) txopi: d means directory
(21:36:37) didleth: minus, so if user have writ-rights, and I do u-w it mens user has no write-right any more - do i good understand?
(21:36:49) didleth: aaaa.... so i didnt good understand
(21:36:53) txopi: :-)
(21:37:01) txopi: $ ls -la
(21:37:01) txopi: drwx------  2 txopi txopi   4096 2009-09-19 01:15 etxea
(21:37:01) txopi: drwxr-xr-x  7 txopi txopi   4096 2009-09-19 11:03 .evolution
(21:37:01) txopi: -rw-r--r--  1 txopi txopi    357 2009-09-18 22:09 examples.desktop
(21:37:01) txopi: drwx------  2 txopi txopi   4096 2009-11-10 03:11 .filezilla
(21:37:03) txopi: drwxr-xr-x  2 txopi txopi   4096 2009-10-03 21:02 .fontconfig
(21:37:14) txopi: etxea is a folder, a directory
(21:37:27) txopi: examples.desktop is a file
(21:37:38) didleth: yhm, so d=directory, -=file, right?
(21:37:55) txopi: they are more kind of elements but i think it is enought with this
(21:37:58) txopi: right
(21:38:03) didleth: ok
(21:38:18) txopi: look at .evolution
(21:38:33) txopi: its name begins with a dot
(21:38:40) didleth: hidedirectory, right?
(21:38:46) txopi: right
(21:39:03) txopi: we can continue with other commands if you want
(21:39:08) didleth: i want
(21:39:19) didleth: but... nobody has nothing against this?
(21:39:31) txopi: why?
(21:39:37) Alster: didleth: do you want to go over an example for the chmod stuff yourself? like chmod g+wr filename?
(21:40:05) didleth: hmmm... alster and dou you have any exaple?
(21:40:21) Alster: didleth: Imagine you have this file:  -rw-r--r--   1 user1 group1  35M 15. Sep 14:45 20631.flv. Now make this executable by everyone including user1 and group1, and writeable only by group1.
(21:40:22) didleth: i belive don't have any group in my pc 
(21:40:39) didleth: ok, wait
(21:40:40) Alster: what'S the chmod command(s) for it?
(21:42:44) didleth: chmod u+x-w g+x a+x ?
(21:42:54) txopi: Alster is a bad boy :-)
(21:43:03) didleth: txopi: why?
(21:43:21) txopi: you will see right now. Alster?
(21:43:24) didleth: its better to broke something on irc now that on kosmos later ;P
(21:43:37) txopi: of course!
(21:43:52) didleth: txopi: you want to scary me with him? ;P
(21:44:03) txopi: :-D
(21:44:08) Alster: hehe
(21:45:04) didleth: so... I did it wrong?
(21:45:21) Alster: you just changed permissions to: -r-xr-xr-x
(21:45:37) Alster: so readable by everyone, executable by everyone
(21:45:58) didleth: :-/ wait 
(21:46:22) Alster: but not writable by group1
(21:46:41) Alster: it was almost fine
(21:46:50) didleth: -rw-r--r--  its readable by everyone, and writeable only by user, right?
(21:46:58) Alster: txopi: correct me if i'm wrong ;-)
(21:47:22) Alster: didleth: yes
(21:47:44) didleth: and it should be... -rx-rxw-rx?
(21:48:55) didleth: u-w+x g+xw a+x
(21:48:56) didleth: ?
(21:49:25) Alster: exactly, this is what you want: -r-xrwxr-x
(21:49:49) didleth: hmmm...another example maybe?
(21:49:49) Alster: it's what you just wrote, just it in the correct order how it would display
(21:50:21) Alster: to get from -rw-r--r-- to -r-xrwxr-x the easiest way is:
(21:50:55) Alster: chmod a+x-w,g+w
(21:51:13) txopi: i thought you were going to use numbers
(21:51:23) Alster: no i wasnt :)
(21:51:29) txopi: ah ok
(21:51:32) Alster: that would be even faster
(21:51:42) txopi: sure
(21:51:44) didleth: wait...
(21:52:16) didleth: (21:50:21) Alster: to get from -rw-r--r-- to -r-xrwxr-x the easiest way is:
(21:52:16) didleth: (21:50:55) Alster: chmod a+x-w,g+w      
(21:52:21) didleth: I don't uderstand
(21:52:22) Alster: the comma just seperates two commands, its the same as: chmod a+x-w 20631.flv    ; chmod g+w 20631.flv
(21:53:09) Alster: "chmod a+x-w 20631.flv" will give ALL the eXecutable bit, and fomr the same, it will remove the Writable bit
(21:53:17) txopi: didleth, you don't need to learn all the posibilities
(21:53:17) didleth: the user in the begind is rw, than is only r, and you didn't make u-w :-/
(21:53:26) txopi: belive me
(21:53:29) Alster: "chmod a+x-w 20631.flv" will give ALL the eXecutable bit, and from the same, it will remove the Writable bit
(21:53:33) didleth: txopi: but I want to understand how it works
(21:53:35) didleth: but ok
(21:53:46) txopi: you can use more than one chmod command and its ok
(21:53:50) Alster: yes i think my example was way to complicated
(21:53:54) Alster: sorry about this
(21:54:02) txopi: bad boy!
(21:54:05) txopi: :-P
(21:54:08) didleth: :-/
(21:54:36) didleth: Alster: complicate or not, I still don't undersant it
(21:54:43) txopi: didleth, you understood the syntax chmod XYZ filename, isn't it?
(21:54:43) didleth: sorry ;))
(21:54:49) Alster: finally "chmod g+w 20631.flv" adds, to the Group, the Write permission
(21:55:12) didleth: hmmmm.... I thought yes...but after that what alster said...i don't belive so :-/
(21:55:15) txopi: with that is enought to do whatever you want (sometimes in more than one command)
(21:55:28) txopi: ouch
(21:55:32) didleth: txopi alster so whe I will do:
(21:55:35) txopi: Alster, fix this
(21:55:57) Alster: didleth: it's generally enough to understand one of the two formats, the number or the uga+-rwx format
(21:56:28) Alster: i'm not very good at the number format, always need to look it up
(21:56:46) Alster: but then, i don't need to use it, since i know the letter format
(21:57:08) didleth:  to get from -rw-r--r-- to -r-xrwxr-x          chmod u-w g+xxr a-r+x it wolud be correct?
(21:57:16) txopi: didleth, the situation that Alster exposed is very uncommon
(21:57:47) txopi: if one day you are in that situation, forget commas, just use two or three commands!
(21:57:53) txopi: is what i do :-)
(21:59:10) txopi: chmod [uga][+-][rwx] filename
(21:59:24) txopi: that's all you need to remember
(21:59:29) didleth: ok...but one thing I dont understand yet in this what is follow... what is xrwxr - why two xr?:-/
(21:59:45) didleth: txopi: ok, sorry for problem
(22:00:13) Alster: didleth: we can go over this again another time, I promise
(22:00:19) didleth: ok
(22:00:21) Alster: but let's not get stuck at this now
(22:00:26) txopi: ok
(22:00:28) didleth: ok, sorry
(22:00:39) txopi: i will explain cat command now
(22:00:52) txopi: didleth, do you know what is "cat" for?
(22:01:06) didleth: it watch what is in the file write
(22:01:09) ***Alster should be sorry, since he made it so complex...
(22:01:12) didleth: show not watch
(22:01:28) didleth: that is the function i knwo
(22:01:29) txopi: yes
(22:01:33) txopi: perfect
(22:01:39) txopi: there is nothing more to say
(22:01:54) didleth: ok
(22:02:02) txopi: Alster, if you want to add something (not very complex...) go ahead
(22:02:14) txopi: now i will explain you "more" and "less"
(22:02:17) txopi: do you know them?
(22:02:24) didleth: no
(22:02:30) didleth: i dont know them
(22:02:33) txopi: ok
(22:02:38) txopi: write
(22:02:40) txopi: $ cd
(22:02:53) txopi: $ more .bashrc
(22:03:23) txopi: you can see the content of the file but in a on-line mode or something like that
(22:03:34) didleth: # ~/.bashrc: executed by bash(1) for non-login shells.
(22:03:42) didleth: seems scaring ;]
(22:03:54) txopi: don't worry about the content
(22:04:17) txopi: if you push space in your keyboard you can go down and down
(22:04:30) didleth: it stay in 26% now
(22:04:47) txopi: hit the space key in you keyboard
(22:05:02) txopi: and q to exit
(22:05:03) didleth: aaaaa... i see
(22:05:23) txopi: all the unix and linux distros have this
(22:05:34) txopi: but you can't go up
(22:05:41) txopi: or at least i dont know how
(22:05:48) didleth: its something like nano but i can't nothing write in?
(22:05:49) txopi: so is better to use "less"
(22:05:56) txopi: the oposite of more :-)
(22:06:04) txopi: didleth, yes
(22:06:11) didleth: ok, I understand
(22:06:13) didleth: and less
(22:06:15) didleth: ?
(22:06:17) txopi: $ less .bashrc
(22:06:25) txopi: is the same but better
(22:06:42) Alster: more and less are text file readers, nano, jed, vim, emacs are text file editors
(22:06:56) txopi: you can go line up, line down, page up, page down, search...
(22:07:42) Alster: ...and quit with 'q'
(22:07:46) txopi: yes
(22:08:03) didleth: ok, i belive I undersant
(22:08:15) txopi: to search an string into the file write / and the string you want to find
(22:08:24) txopi:  /PS1
(22:08:29) didleth: and how to serach in this? 
(22:08:33) didleth: a, ok
(22:08:48) txopi: do you see how PS1 is now marked?
(22:09:35) Alster: you need to press enter
(22:09:52) txopi: ^_^
(22:10:51) didleth: heh, I will try in some easier file
(22:10:59) txopi: ok
(22:11:41) txopi: create one with nano if you want
(22:12:43) Alster: less /usr/share/doc/bash/FAQ
(22:14:57) didleth: grrrr...its like vi ;>
(22:15:05) ***didleth hates vi ;]
(22:15:20) Alster: you can always use emacs
(22:15:24) Alster: :)
(22:15:32) didleth: oe nano :]
(22:15:37) didleth: *or
(22:16:04) Alster: yes, but in the long run you don't want to use nano anymore. but it is very well for the beginning
(22:16:05) ***didleth doesn't like emacs too - used to use nano/in gnome gedit
(22:16:34) didleth: ok, I have man -less
(22:16:47) didleth: have to just execrcise it
(22:16:47) Alster: one thing to know about less and searching is that is does not do a plain text search
(22:16:55) Alster: it uses a special search syntax
(22:16:59) Alster: regular expressions
(22:17:11) didleth: oo...good to know, which one syntax?
(22:17:20) txopi: Alster...
(22:17:27) didleth: if I want to find some text, what should I write?
(22:17:31) Alster: it usually works with normal words, but it does not always wor this way
(22:17:44) Alster: read the man page, it sould explain
(22:17:53) txopi: i think that you should give just some little tips
(22:17:53) Alster: going into this now would be too much, too
(22:17:54) txopi: not more
(22:18:12) Alster: yes
(22:18:29) didleth: less /usr/share/doc/bash/FAQ
(22:18:29) didleth:  and what now?
(22:18:43) Alster: i just want to prepare didleth for the case when she's searching for something and cannot find it even though it is there
(22:18:55) txopi: of course
(22:19:02) txopi: go ahead
(22:19:19) Alster: didleth: ok, in this file, search for 'version'
(22:19:20) txopi: but remember that we are talking for 3,5 hours
(22:19:29) Alster: i'll make it veeery short
(22:19:32) txopi: ok
(22:19:35) txopi: great
(22:19:41) Alster: txopi: what else is missing now?
(22:19:55) txopi: i don't know too much about regexp so go ahead
(22:20:02) Alster: meaning, what else is on the agenda?
(22:20:05) didleth: Alster: wait, i try
(22:20:16) txopi: cat, less, tail, file, df, free, who, w
(22:20:27) Alster: txopi: let's move screen and the other commands to next time, ok?
(22:20:38) txopi: ok
(22:20:54) Alster: txopi: i need to leave shortly, and am starving, ad dileth already has a lot to remember
(22:21:02) txopi: but tail, file, df, free, who and w are short
(22:21:02) Alster: but let's finish this search example
(22:21:30) txopi: nano and vi could be much longer
(22:21:31) txopi: ok
(22:21:31) Alster: txopi: if you and didleth still have the patience to go on, perfectly fine with me ;-)
(22:21:49) Alster: didleth: did you do it, yet?
(22:21:59) txopi: i'm eating something while you talk :-)
(22:22:19) didleth: alster: i'm trying to find a good command to search... and in mans it comlicated
(22:22:30) Alster: didleth: press /
(22:22:40) Alster: then type this: version
(22:22:43) Alster: then press enter
(22:22:48) didleth: txopi: if it comfort you, harc will probably kill me again for wasting your time ;]
(22:23:22) Alster: that's how you searched for 'PS1' in the other file, rmember?
(22:23:38) didleth: just have to tipe '/' to find something?
(22:23:56) Alster: yes, / followed by what you want to search for
(22:24:12) didleth: well.... exaxly i put /ps1 to find something and it didn't work... so thatwhy i use man ; )
(22:24:17) ***txopi doesn't understand why harc could do that
(22:25:03) ***txopi doesn't understand why harc could want do that
(22:25:05) didleth: txopi: becouse techie sholudn't be noobish, nevermind ;]
(22:25:22) Alster: hehehe
(22:25:27) txopi: all the techies are newbies at first
(22:25:32) Alster: right
(22:25:46) didleth: txopi: 'm techie since one year ;P
(22:25:51) didleth: go weiter, ok?
(22:25:52) Alster: didleth: did you try this:  /version
(22:25:59) didleth: yes, and it found
(22:26:04) Alster: ooook
(22:26:07) didleth: 2 world version
(22:26:13) Alster: so this worked as expected
(22:26:16) didleth: words
(22:26:31) Alster: now try something else. search for this: .ersion
(22:26:46) didleth: with dop?
(22:26:53) Alster: with dot, yes
(22:27:17) Alster: you will have the same search results again
(22:27:33) txopi: wow!
(22:27:36) txopi: xDDD
(22:27:42) txopi: just joking
(22:27:44) Alster: that's silly, isn't it?
(22:27:48) didleth: found version
(22:27:57) didleth: yes
(22:27:59) Alster: after all, .ersion is not the same as version
(22:28:29) didleth: so it works like fin something in firefox? ;]
(22:28:29) Alster: but i told you before that less uses this special search term syntax, which is called "regular expressions"
(22:28:42) didleth: aaaa..... I knoiw
(22:28:48) Alster: no, it's actually a rather complex format
(22:28:50) didleth: like in spam-filter in indymedia?
(22:28:57) Alster: yes, probably
(22:29:04) didleth: ok, so I understand now
(22:29:31) Alster: so, just don't always expect the search of 'less' to work as you might it expect to work
(22:29:45) didleth: Alster: yes, I undersnad
(22:29:51) didleth: ok
(22:30:01) Alster: ok, then i'm done. 
(22:30:08) ***txopi suggest to search ".hell"
(22:30:14) Alster: hehehe
(22:30:33) txopi: to find the utility of regular expressions
(22:30:36) didleth: fund shell
(22:30:46) txopi: and Shell?
(22:30:50) didleth: yes
(22:31:16) didleth: fund Shell ;P
(22:31:21) txopi: perfect
(22:31:29) didleth: it is diffrent big and small letters right?
(22:31:41) txopi: . is any character
(22:31:43) txopi: shell
(22:31:45) txopi: Shell
(22:31:55) txopi: -hell
(22:32:02) txopi:  hell
(22:32:12) didleth: ok, we can go weiter
(22:32:20) txopi: well, i think continue
(22:32:22) Alster: so i'm afraid i need to leave the two of you alone for now. we will need to postpone the skill sharing session on 'screen' then. but if the two of you are still patient and still have the time, please go on with the other commands. ;-)
(22:32:28) didleth: (away? haw is weiter in english?)
(22:32:50) Alster: if not, we can happily postpone those, too. i'm fine with whatever you do.
(22:32:59) txopi: mmmh
(22:33:08) txopi: i think i prefer to stop here
(22:33:15) txopi: because i am hungry
(22:33:15) didleth: ok
(22:33:28) didleth: so I'm going to meke something to drink :]
(22:33:34) txopi: and tomorrow i have to wake up very early for the indyeh assembly
(22:33:58) txopi: i want to prepare some texts for tomorrow
(22:34:13) didleth: ok - what is in agenda yet?
(22:34:26) txopi: i would like to continue because is funny but is have to do also another things
(22:34:51) txopi: tail, file, df, free, who, w
(22:35:08) Alster: | and < would be good, too
(22:35:17) txopi: and >>
(22:35:20) Alster: right
(22:35:33) didleth: so its all for today, right?
(22:35:33) Alster: and the difference between stdout and stderr
(22:35:42) txopi: also
(22:35:53) didleth: df is to look or var on kosmos is full ;P
(22:36:04) Alster: :)
(22:36:05) txopi: i thought about that but i was not sure if that was too complex
(22:36:11) Alster: so, i'm leaving, have a nice night!
(22:36:20) txopi: ok, bye!
(22:36:30) txopi: and thank you for your guidance!
(22:36:32) didleth: have a nice night to Alster and thx foer session :]
(22:36:32) Alster: txopi: yes, we can do it later, you're right
(22:36:48) Alster: txopi did it!
(22:36:53) Alster: :)
(22:37:00) txopi: i gave the explanations
(22:37:06) didleth: Alster: but txopi don't go yet?
(22:37:08) txopi: you guided me
(22:37:29) txopi: didleth, i will continue here but making other things in my computer
(22:37:49) txopi: if you have any doubt or something just ask me
(22:37:57) didleth: aha, ok - so thx for the lesson very much :]
(22:38:15) didleth: I will doing something for drink
(22:38:24) txopi: you are wellcom
(22:38:25) didleth: (someone want tee? ;P)
(22:38:42) txopi: Alster, dont forget tee (the command!)
(22:38:54) Alster: good point
(22:38:55) didleth: ok, sor for today finlish - log for this time