Skill sharing session 6 (log)

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Dec  9 20:08:46 2009

abe 09 20:20:32 <didleth>	ok, so we start
abe 09 20:20:35 <txopi>	but i will do a break for dinner (very late here)
abe 09 20:20:48 <didleth>	ok. 1.Do we want a summary or IRC logs of this meeting? If so, who volunteers to do it?
abe 09 20:21:21 <didleth>	i can but od friday evening- tommorow i have busy day
abe 09 20:21:43 <Alster>	Would be nice if someone else than didleth would do it, since she's been doing it mostly lately
abe 09 20:22:12 <txopi>	i will take logs too
abe 09 20:22:29 <txopi>	i can put them today at final hour or tomorrow morning
abe 09 20:22:32 *	harcesz cant do it
abe 09 20:22:50 <didleth>	so if txopi can do this - its great :]
abe 09 20:23:13 <Alster>	thanks txopi
abe 09 20:23:50 <Alster>	we could also decide not to have logs if we think it's not neccessary, of course.
abe 09 20:24:08 *	Alster thinks they are useful, though, and it's worth the efforts
abe 09 20:24:52 <txopi>	i think the logs can be useful for us and for other people, soon or in the future
abe 09 20:25:05 <txopi>	ok, i will take the logs and publish them
abe 09 20:25:05 <didleth>	i belive its a good to have logs - if not now, it would be ussfell to the future if we forget about something
abe 09 20:25:33 <didleth>	ok, so now... 2. Next meeting
abe 09 20:25:49 <Alster>	txopi: can you also anonimize the logs, as we have done before
abe 09 20:26:06 <txopi>	Alster: of course. not need to say :-)
abe 09 20:26:20 <Alster>	thank you :)
abe 09 20:26:26 <Alster>	<didleth> ok, so now... 2. Next meeting
abe 09 20:26:39 <txopi>	we can use the cg's planner
abe 09 20:27:21 <didleth>	this sunday?
abe 09 20:27:29 <Alster>	if we want to continue using the meeting planner in CG, someone will need to extend the dates on it
abe 09 20:28:04 <didleth>	Alster: i belive its no need right now
abe 09 20:28:19 <didleth>	i mean, i belive we can have one meeting yet this weekend
abe 09 20:28:38 <Alster>	i just updated my availability for this weekend, sorry...
abe 09 20:29:07 <didleth>	friday 21.00 are not good to?
abe 09 20:29:47 <Alster>	not for me, i have another meeting at 20:00 (and need to leave an hour in advance)
abe 09 20:29:49 <didleth>	ok, so meybe we make a planner after meeting to not take time and will decide till end of this week?
abe 09 20:29:52 <txopi>	all saturday is inpossible for me
abe 09 20:30:02 <txopi>	why don't we just use the planner?
abe 09 20:30:19 <txopi>	i can on friday and perhaps on sunday but late
abe 09 20:30:23 <Alster>	sunday 15:00 doesn't work for you txopi, right?
abe 09 20:30:29 <Alster>	ok
abe 09 20:30:32 <txopi>	Alster: no
abe 09 20:30:40 <didleth>	so i can do new planner
abe 09 20:30:48 <didleth>	at night or tommorow morning
abe 09 20:31:12 <txopi>	mmmh
abe 09 20:31:32 <didleth>	brb/batroom
abe 09 20:31:42 <txopi>	i have other urgent things to do
abe 09 20:31:49 <txopi>	i prefer if we meet next week
abe 09 20:31:56 <txopi>	if you don't mind...
abe 09 20:33:39 <Alster>	OK, so i suggest didleth kindly extends the meeting planner (once again) and notifies us on the mailing list when she's done with it. Would this be ok for everyone?
abe 09 20:34:15 <Alster>	we'll need to have didleth's word on it when she's back, most of all.
abe 09 20:34:46 <Alster>	harcesz: any preference?
abe 09 20:35:58 <harcesz>	Alster: no changes
abe 09 20:36:08 <harcesz>	I live on a protest camp at the moment
abe 09 20:36:24 <didleth>	i'm back
abe 09 20:36:29 <didleth>	ok i will do this
abe 09 20:36:55 <harcesz>	I'll have to run in a while cuz we got a late evening meeting with our lawyer but I'm free 99% of the time
abe 09 20:37:18 <Alster>	harcesz: I see. No changes to what? Previous weeks? If so, I'm afraid you'll need to vote again since I cleaned up our old votes.
abe 09 20:38:14 <Alster>	(there's also technically no way to resuse old votes for newer dates)
abe 09 20:38:38 <harcesz>	Alster: 99% meeting uptime
abe 09 20:39:05 <didleth>	i suggest: i will prepar the planner
abe 09 20:39:20 <didleth>	and harcesz put his vote on it when he will be on internet
abe 09 20:39:23 <Alster>	hmm, I'm afraid I don't understand "99% meeting uptime"
abe 09 20:39:39 <didleth>	i belive he is in internet o0n the evening even oin thwe camp - its geek ;P
abe 09 20:39:39 <Alster>	didleth: sounds like a good plan to me
abe 09 20:40:17 <harcesz>	Alster: sry, I havent got any fixed meetings or anything at the moment, I can adjust to everybody else
abe 09 20:40:20 <Alster>	if it ever feels like i'm pushing things too much please tell me, since I can have a tendency to do so.
abe 09 20:40:34 <Alster>	great harcesz 
abe 09 20:40:51 <txopi>	i'm doing also other things but i follow you
abe 09 20:41:09 <txopi>	friday afternoon is perfect to me
abe 09 20:41:26 <txopi>	saturday no!
abe 09 20:41:29 <txopi>	sunday bad
abe 09 20:41:30 <didleth>	Alster: no problem, you dont puing anything 
abe 09 20:41:52 <didleth>	well, i'm not sure what this mean but i thing that what you say its ok
abe 09 20:42:14 <txopi>	Alster the dictator!!
abe 09 20:42:17 <txopi>	xDD
abe 09 20:42:23 <Alster>	:-P
abe 09 20:42:25 <didleth>	maybe i met planner and everyone put it later?
abe 09 20:42:42 <didleth>	txopi: and what do you said about me? i talk every time - its worse ;P
abe 09 20:43:07 *	txopi agrees to fill the planner later
abe 09 20:43:33 <Alster>	ok, so we have three of us agreeing to what didleth suggested
abe 09 20:43:39 <Alster>	this should suffice
abe 09 20:44:02 <txopi>	didleth the irresponsible root!!
abe 09 20:44:05 <txopi>	xDD
abe 09 20:44:27 <harcesz>	txopi: the heckler! 
abe 09 20:44:43 <Alster>	just keep in mind that there are three steps involved: 1. extend meeting planner, 2. everyone marks their availability, 3. someone volunteers and self-initiates to call for a meeting
abe 09 20:45:00 <txopi>	yes! that's me! :-D
abe 09 20:45:19 <Alster>	ah, so txopi volunteers and self-initiates to call for a meeting
abe 09 20:45:25 <Alster>	very good
abe 09 20:45:36 <txopi>	ooooookey!
abe 09 20:45:43 <didleth>	i translate what arwe you talking about mee ;P
abe 09 20:45:44 <txopi>	i'll do!
abe 09 20:45:55 <txopi>	no problem
abe 09 20:46:13 *	txopi is also using all the time
abe 09 20:46:57 <txopi>	if we are going to stay here so much time, we can tie the things now
abe 09 20:47:27 <txopi>	didleth, can you extend the planner now?
abe 09 20:47:35 <didleth>	i prefer do this after meeting if you don't mind
abe 09 20:47:38 <txopi>	ok
abe 09 20:47:43 <didleth>	but if you want to have this now
abe 09 20:47:44 <txopi>	so, next point?
abe 09 20:47:47 <didleth>	i can do this
abe 09 20:48:02 <txopi>	4. Server hosting (Nadir virtual server status)
abe 09 20:48:09 <txopi>	i haven't nothing to say here
abe 09 20:48:09 <didleth>	Nadir virtual server status
abe 09 20:48:20 <didleth>	so txopi... you aid no become anyy mail from nadir?
abe 09 20:48:30 <txopi>	no mail form nadir
abe 09 20:48:33 <txopi>	and you?
abe 09 20:48:36 <Alster>	weird
abe 09 20:48:40 <txopi>	you got an encrypted one?
abe 09 20:48:47 <didleth>	i become once in english and was sure you have it to - it was in english and in answer on you e-mail
abe 09 20:48:54 <didleth>	txopi: yes
abe 09 20:48:55 <Alster>	apparently both didleth and I received one
abe 09 20:49:21 <Alster>	I guess we cannot post it here if we will have public logs
abe 09 20:49:44 <Alster>	but we could paraphrase what's not sensitive
abe 09 20:49:44 <txopi>	you can fordward to me encypted
abe 09 20:49:47 <didleth>	maybe i will put it
abe 09 20:49:49 <didleth>	in talk
abe 09 20:49:52 <didleth>	in kosmos
abe 09 20:50:00 <didleth>	its a good time to try use talk
abe 09 20:50:07 <didleth>	and its save
abe 09 20:50:32 <didleth>	i only don't know or its possible
abe 09 20:51:30 <Alster>	you could just put it into a file
abe 09 20:51:59 <didleth>	ok i will try - i hope i remember how to do this, didn't do this since june
abe 09 20:52:00 <Alster>	or cat|less + paste + Ctrl-D
abe 09 20:52:06 <Alster>	in a screen
abe 09 20:52:25 <didleth>	on screen? ok
abe 09 20:53:10 <txopi>	didleth, just scp the file to kosmos
abe 09 20:53:19 <txopi>	and i will do the rest
abe 09 20:53:21 <didleth>	so screen or scp?
abe 09 20:53:34 <didleth>	i'm mixed now ;-/
abe 09 20:53:45 <txopi>	scp file
abe 09 20:53:47 <didleth>	i mean, which you both prepare?
abe 09 20:53:51 <txopi>	execute tgis
abe 09 20:53:53 <txopi>	this
abe 09 20:53:57 <didleth>	scp ok
abe 09 20:53:58 <txopi>	file is the name of the file
abe 09 20:54:00 <Alster>	scp is better
abe 09 20:54:14 <Alster>	since it will be available for people later
abe 09 20:56:39 <Alster>	didleth: any luck?
abe 09 20:56:52 <didleth>	don't ask ;P
abe 09 20:57:14 <didleth>	i was sure 'q' is to go out from screen
abe 09 20:57:19 <didleth>	but i will just datached it
abe 09 20:57:23 <didleth>	if q doesn't work
abe 09 20:58:03 <txopi>	harcesz: the is no world to translate heckler to spanish
abe 09 20:58:12 <didleth>	harcesz: and polish ;D
abe 09 20:58:13 <txopi>	harcesz: heckler = persona que interrumpe a un orador
abe 09 20:58:30 <didleth>	what this eigentlich is?
abe 09 20:58:33 <Alster>	didleth: Ctrl a d
abe 09 20:58:51 <Alster>	didleth: detach from a screen session
abe 09 20:59:14 <didleth>	Alster: yes i detached it
abe 09 20:59:31 <harcesz>	txopi: that is right
abe 09 20:59:37 <Alster>	I stored the email to /root/2009-12_mailfromnadir.txt
abe 09 20:59:38 <harcesz>	my wrong :P
abe 09 20:59:39 <didleth>	it was quicler that to find out why 'q' soesnt work, but what wrong with the scp
abe 09 20:59:45 <Alster>	sorry didleth 
abe 09 21:00:05 <didleth>	:-/
abe 09 21:00:26 <didleth>	he, my foulk, i will try to do it more quickly next time
abe 09 21:00:44 <Alster>	yours will be better since I only copy+pasted, so not with full headers
abe 09 21:01:14 <didleth>	i only have to remember how scp works - for my forgive i have we haven't it on session yet, so i did it only some mont ago
abe 09 21:01:29 <Alster>	txopi: do you want to read it and notify us when you're done?
abe 09 21:01:59 <Alster>	didleth: good excuse :)
abe 09 21:02:08 <Alster>	didleth: and besides, you don't need an excuse
abe 09 21:02:44 <Alster>	scp would have taken me longer, too
abe 09 21:02:57 <txopi>	reading
abe 09 21:03:10 <didleth>	no, it was easy when i added ssh-keys to kosmos
abe 09 21:03:25 <Alster>	yes this helps a lot
abe 09 21:03:47 <Alster>	and can become tragical when you loose your laptop
abe 09 21:04:13 <Alster>	(or have your apartment raided)
abe 09 21:04:30 <Alster>	unless you have full disk encryption
abe 09 21:04:46 <didleth>	Alster: unfurtunately, i don't know how to do this :(
abe 09 21:04:56 <didleth>	but its not necassary
abe 09 21:05:11 <Alster>	it's an option on the alternative ubuntu install cd
abe 09 21:05:16 <txopi>	done
abe 09 21:05:24 <didleth>	i mean - even if somene still my lapton and go on kosmos - he still don't know my sudo-password right?
abe 09 21:05:47 <txopi>	bad news
abe 09 21:06:01 <didleth>	well, i thought about truecrypt - but it's very complicate
abe 09 21:06:10 <Alster>	didleth: no, not the sudo password. but restricted access can often be extended to root privileges.
abe 09 21:06:23 <txopi>	i think we should migrate to the new server as soon as possible because kosmos is ill
abe 09 21:06:34 <Alster>	didleth: we can discuss this topic later, let's continue with the nadir email now, ok?
abe 09 21:06:36 <didleth>	txopi: this is what we wanted to talk you
abe 09 21:06:41 <didleth>	yhm
abe 09 21:06:46 <txopi>	as we execute mir yet, i understand that's not a problem for nadir
abe 09 21:06:53 <didleth>	i mean: it is ok for you
abe 09 21:06:58 <didleth>	imc-eh and canarias
abe 09 21:07:06 <didleth>	that we migrate together?
abe 09 21:07:20 <didleth>	well - i would ask it more nice and kindly
abe 09 21:07:25 <Alster>	txopi: "the new server" is the xen domU nadir is offering you?
abe 09 21:07:28 <didleth>	but no idea how to do this in english
abe 09 21:07:33 <txopi>	the new server just can generate static content (so execute mir)
abe 09 21:07:55 <txopi>	Alster: yes
abe 09 21:08:33 <txopi>	canarias now is executing dada and want to migrate to drupal now
abe 09 21:08:51 <didleth>	harcesz: 
abe 09 21:08:57 <txopi>	but thouse are solutions that do not geenrate static content
abe 09 21:09:24 <didleth>	txopi: what do you mean?
abe 09 21:09:42 <Alster>	ok, so we'll do two migrations, one to the Nadir Xen DomU, another later when your IMCs are ready to move on to a CMS which doesn't produce static content only (which seems to be the plan so far).
abe 09 21:09:48 <didleth>	 thouse are solutions that do not geenrate static content
abe 09 21:10:17 <txopi>	mir generates static contents
abe 09 21:10:44 <txopi> is not kosmos
abe 09 21:10:48 *	harcesz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
abe 09 21:11:00 <Alster>	txopi: I think didleth' point was that canarias could not be hosted with Nadir
abe 09 21:11:06 <txopi>	is another server with the mirror of the mirs static content
abe 09 21:11:14 <didleth>	txopi: i think we can look at the server nadir suggest
abe 09 21:11:21 <txopi>	other cms like drupal, dada, etc don't do that
abe 09 21:11:42 <txopi>	Alster: ok
abe 09 21:11:46 <txopi>	didleth: yes
abe 09 21:11:52 <txopi>	but this is so slow
abe 09 21:12:02 <didleth>	so... do you thing out imc could migrate together?
abe 09 21:12:20 <didleth>	i think: or it would be ok for imc-eh
abe 09 21:12:26 <txopi>	of course we can, but where?
abe 09 21:12:45 <didleth>	or do you want to have own server seperate from pl?
abe 09 21:12:58 <txopi>	:-)
abe 09 21:13:10 <txopi>	we want to survive, like you
abe 09 21:13:28 <txopi>	we have to move form server
abe 09 21:13:32 <didleth>	txopi: well... if i can be sincere, we want to migrrate tro drupal
abe 09 21:13:36 <txopi>	and we want to migrate to drupal
abe 09 21:13:52 <didleth>	but there is no people who know drupal good to do it quickly
abe 09 21:13:57 <didleth>	and where it would be ok for you?
abe 09 21:13:59 <txopi>	didleth, us too, but that can take very long
abe 09 21:14:15 <txopi>	and i don't want that kosmos broke and all goes down
abe 09 21:14:17 <didleth>	so: we are in this same situation
abe 09 21:14:29 <txopi>	wait
abe 09 21:14:31 <didleth>	that it was i'm aftraid
abe 09 21:14:52 <didleth>	i menan - once days kosmos just don't work and indymedia are dead
abe 09 21:15:03 <txopi>	eh: (kosmos) mir -> drupal
abe 09 21:15:11 <txopi>	pl: (kosmos) mir -> drupal 
abe 09 21:15:15 *	harcesz ( has joined #kosmos
abe 09 21:15:15 *	ChanServ gives channel operator status to harcesz
abe 09 21:15:16 <didleth>	yhm
abe 09 21:15:17 <txopi>	canarias: (mutualaid) dada -> drupal 
abe 09 21:15:36 <txopi>	laplana: (mutualaid) drupal
abe 09 21:15:38 <didleth>	txopi: maybe when will try to find in 3 one server?
abe 09 21:15:48 <txopi>	mutualaid has told to canarias and laplana they have to go
abe 09 21:15:50 <didleth>	or 4 ; )
abe 09 21:16:04 <txopi>	something similar to what nadir told us
abe 09 21:16:30 <txopi>	so if all us are going to execute drupal and all us have no server
abe 09 21:16:48 <txopi>	it is absolutely logical if we move all together to a new server
abe 09 21:16:56 <didleth>	:]
abe 09 21:17:15 <txopi>	and of course, we have to remember that jon is a crack and will help us for sure
abe 09 21:17:27 <didleth>	ok... i belive we have to meet in  imc and talking about this
abe 09 21:17:41 <txopi>	but what happens if kosmos goes down and we lose data?
abe 09 21:17:50 <didleth>	jon?
abe 09 21:18:09 <Alster>	jon of imc canarias
abe 09 21:18:15 <didleth>	hmm... i belive the question is: how many time we have to migrate
abe 09 21:18:42 <txopi>	i think we should stop skill sharing
abe 09 21:18:59 <didleth>	?
abe 09 21:19:03 <txopi>	and use that time to put external backups from kosmos working as soon as possible
abe 09 21:19:30 <txopi>	i have few time and i need to use it to put the backups working
abe 09 21:19:41 <didleth>	hmm.... my problem is: i have no idea how to make backups
abe 09 21:20:07 <txopi>	and also to ask those servers, calculate the hd we need, the bandwith we need, wait for answers, etc.
abe 09 21:20:11 <didleth>	but if there is some manual to do this or something like that...
abe 09 21:20:24 <txopi>	neither i didleth 
abe 09 21:20:25 <Alster>	as you may have seen i tried to setup encrypted remote backups already, but it failed since the target server has too little disk space
abe 09 21:20:26 <didleth>	harcesz: mam nadzieje ze czytasz i ogarniasz
abe 09 21:20:40 <txopi>	but we can learn quickly
abe 09 21:20:55 <Alster>	it may also have failed because of the lack of bandwidth and unreliable connection of kosmos
abe 09 21:21:09 <txopi>	Alster: don't worry. you have do all perfect
abe 09 21:21:14 <txopi>	the matter is us
abe 09 21:21:29 <txopi>	we haven't proposed any external machine yet
abe 09 21:21:44 <txopi>	i just have this laptop
abe 09 21:21:57 <didleth>	txopi: i'm not sure or i good understood nadirs mail
abe 09 21:22:24 <txopi>	at eh two people offered their machines but i have to persecute they
abe 09 21:22:29 <didleth>	but - how long as we are in mir can nadir be production server?
abe 09 21:22:32 <Alster>	well i would like to make another attempt. but the connectivity of kosmos is indeed an issue for this.
abe 09 21:23:56 <Alster>	didleth: My understanding of their email is that as long as you use a CMS like Mir you can continue to host with Nadir.
abe 09 21:24:20 <didleth>	txopi: so maybe: we will try to migrate to nadir right now
abe 09 21:24:31 <didleth>	till we not migrate to drupal?
abe 09 21:24:38 <didleth>	what do you thing about this?
abe 09 21:25:08 <txopi>	Alster: i understood the same
abe 09 21:25:32 <txopi>	at indyeh we are trying to "sell" the indyeh 2.0 project to get money
abe 09 21:25:38 <txopi>	so if we continue on mir...
abe 09 21:25:53 <didleth>	txopi: i belive i understand
abe 09 21:25:54 <Alster>	I guess Tachanka would be able to host a vserver for your 4 IMCs' in Canada or USA if you like. But we'd need to ask for regular donations, too, since we're short of money, too.
abe 09 21:26:45 <Alster>	(you could also host mir or whatever there, as long as you look after the server yourself)
abe 09 21:26:59 <didleth>	we want to write a project to have money for new imc, and there are 2xmoney: one for nadir, one for anothere server, so its impossible to have both
abe 09 21:27:10 <Alster>	I haven't discussed that with the others, yet, so this is not a real offer, yet.
abe 09 21:27:25 <txopi>	wait
abe 09 21:28:44 <didleth>	so txopi
abe 09 21:28:53 <Alster>	still, my recommendation would be that PL+EH move to the Xen DomU first, since these are really seperate topics.
abe 09 21:28:54 <didleth>	i understand you, we are both in this same situation
abe 09 21:29:39 <txopi>	i didn't spected this answer from nadir
abe 09 21:29:41 <didleth>	Alster: well... I belive not exactly.. maybe is artifical problem, but
abe 09 21:30:11 <didleth>	nadir and another server means we should pay twice 
abe 09 21:30:23 <didleth>	once for nadir, once for anothere server
abe 09 21:30:27 *	jonhattan ( has joined #kosmos
abe 09 21:31:10 <didleth>	i don't think so its possible to become form foundation or imc-finanse or so so much money for 2 diffrente services
abe 09 21:32:21 <txopi>	i have to think about all this
abe 09 21:32:31 <txopi>	they are so many variables...
abe 09 21:32:52 <Alster>	didleth: don't think in such straight terms. Nadir has been hosting you for free for a while, and they aren't going to drop you now if you don't contribute quickly. And all other radical hosting providers work by similar terms.
abe 09 21:32:59 <txopi>	we can do what Alster says, cotinue the plan: move to nadir as quick as we can
abe 09 21:33:00 <didleth>	so it would be just cheaper to migrate to one server not for one and the second one, but i'm afraid or we have enought time
abe 09 21:33:19 <txopi>	and start thinking where to move again :-/
abe 09 21:33:22 <harcesz>	sry i'll have to be running in a minute
abe 09 21:33:40 <txopi>	i must have dinner now
abe 09 21:33:42 <txopi>	i'm sorry
abe 09 21:33:46 <didleth>	harcesz: i kill you for this, but ok - i will take are imc-pl decision authoritary ;P
abe 09 21:33:50 <txopi>	i have to make a break
abe 09 21:33:52 <harcesz>	I guess we need to move from kosmos to domu still on mir and then as we progress on to drupal to a new host
abe 09 21:33:53 <Alster>	and nadir is not going to charge you twice for having two servers while you migrate from the current kosmos to the DomU and there is progress in this.
abe 09 21:34:04 <didleth>	so ok
abe 09 21:34:08 <didleth>	migrate first to nadir
abe 09 21:34:13 <didleth>	and that thing about drupal
abe 09 21:34:17 <harcesz>	o0
abe 09 21:34:18 <txopi>	do you want to continue with the plan points? regular expressions, cut, awk, sed, etc.
abe 09 21:34:22 <Alster>	hi jonhattan 
abe 09 21:34:25 <txopi>	tlf
abe 09 21:34:41 <Alster>	txopi: would you mind if we do?
abe 09 21:34:49 <jonhattan>	hi Alster et al
abe 09 21:34:55 <txopi>	Alster: no! please go ahead
abe 09 21:35:10 <Alster>	txopi: alright. :)
abe 09 21:35:14 <didleth>	hi jonhattan
abe 09 21:37:00 <Alster>	didleth: I think at least IMC EH will need to discuss this more. The only thing that is urgent now is to make sure you have a backup copy and a way to have a running server quickly in case the hard disks in kosmos die.
abe 09 21:37:37 <didleth>	yhm, i understand
abe 09 21:37:52 <didleth>	so i belive now we have to do all to make backups and migrate
abe 09 21:37:53 <didleth>	right?
abe 09 21:37:56 *	txopi is away
abe 09 21:37:57 <Alster>	but with both harc and tx0pi gone now i guess we cannot solve it right now. so would you be ok with doing the shell commands?
abe 09 21:38:38 <Alster>	If I was in your situation this is what I'd do, yes.
abe 09 21:39:03 <didleth>	ok
abe 09 21:39:25 <Alster>	didleth: should we talk to jonhattan about what their plans are shortly?
abe 09 21:40:42 <Alster>	or would you prefer doing the shell commands just now and move such talks to later when the others are around again?
abe 09 21:41:07 <harcesz>	Alster: sorry for the blast into the past - but if u could discuss hosting us on tachanka with the rest of the collective and how much you would ask us to contribute, that would be really cool
abe 09 21:41:26 <didleth>	maybe we talk with jonathan when txopi is come back and now we continuate in comannds?
abe 09 21:42:03 <Alster>	harcesz: ok, I will talk to them and get back to you.
abe 09 21:42:22 <Alster>	jonhattan: will you still be around in an hour?
abe 09 21:42:39 <jonhattan>	please continue with commands. I joined the channel in listen mode  
abe 09 21:43:06 <Alster>	alright, we'll see then
abe 09 21:43:41 <didleth>	so last time we ends with cut if I good remember
abe 09 21:43:52 <Alster>	ok, i pointed out the neccessity of off-site backups, that's all i wanted to do for this agenda item
abe 09 21:44:00 <Alster>	so... Introduction to common shell commands pt 2 cntd. (Alster)
abe 09 21:44:00 <Alster>	Text manipulation and regular expressions with cut, sed, awk, grep
abe 09 21:44:07 <Alster>	yes we did cut
abe 09 21:44:17 <Alster>	but i think we stopped somewhere in between
abe 09 21:44:23 *	Alster is checking logs
abe 09 21:44:27 <didleth>	yhm, i belive it too
abe 09 21:45:15 *	harcesz has to run, cya
abe 09 21:45:22 <didleth>	cya harcesz
abe 09 21:45:28 <Alster>	bye harcesz 
abe 09 21:46:03 <Alster>	didleth: by the way, you should put (pre) (/pre) tags around the logs, or they will look weird.
abe 09 21:46:46 <didleth>	so on the begining and of the end?
abe 09 21:46:47 <didleth>	ok
abe 09 21:46:56 <Alster>	yes
abe 09 21:47:05 <Alster>	(pre) logs go here (/pre)
abe 09 21:47:09 <didleth>	i, i knew it is strike in logs but i didn't know why and how to delete it, sorry
abe 09 21:47:24 <Alster>	you did fine, thanks
abe 09 21:47:44 <Alster>	so this is what we did so far:
abe 09 21:47:46 <Alster>	$ echo 'Hi this is the kosmos system administrators.' | cut -d ' ' -f 6
abe 09 21:47:47 <Alster>	system
abe 09 21:47:47 <Alster>	$
abe 09 21:48:00 <Alster>	$ echo '' | cut -d '.' -f 6
abe 09 21:48:12 <Alster>	system
abe 09 21:48:14 <Alster>	$
abe 09 21:48:23 <Alster>	do you remember?
abe 09 21:48:50 <didleth>	yhm, i belive so - it cut in a number of words in the syntax
abe 09 21:49:56 *	harcesz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
abe 09 21:50:06 <Alster>	"-d '.'" defines the field delimiter and "-f 6" means the sixth' field
abe 09 21:50:20 <Alster>	sorry, just had someone calling me (done)
abe 09 21:50:38 <didleth>	okyhm
abe 09 21:51:39 <Alster>	so, if you have this and want to cut out the word 'kosmos', you do what?  echo '!Hi!this!is!the!kosmos!system!administrators.!'
abe 09 21:51:51 <didleth>	wait i thik
abe 09 21:52:56 <didleth>	echo '!Hi!this!is!the!kosmos!system!administrators.!' | cut -d ' '-f 5
abe 09 21:52:57 <didleth>	?
abe 09 21:53:21 <Alster>	try it
abe 09 21:53:41 <Alster>	what do you get, and why?
abe 09 21:54:10 <didleth>	error
abe 09 21:54:42 <Alster>	ok that's because you have no space between ' ' and -f
abe 09 21:54:49 <didleth>	wait
abe 09 21:55:40 <didleth>	didleth@Atena:~$ echo '' | cut -d '!' -f 5
abe 09 21:55:40 <didleth>
abe 09 21:55:40 <didleth>	?
abe 09 21:56:05 <didleth>	:-/
abe 09 21:56:16 <didleth>	noch eimnal, sorry
abe 09 21:56:18 <Alster>	you did not copy the right text
abe 09 21:56:26 <Alster>	echo '!Hi!this!is!the!kosmos!system!administrators.!'
abe 09 21:56:36 <didleth>	ok
abe 09 21:57:57 <Alster>	but you were heading in the right direction
abe 09 21:59:01 <didleth>	the result shoud be '!Hi!this!is!the!system!administrators.!'
abe 09 21:59:02 <didleth>	?
abe 09 21:59:21 <Alster>	no, just this: kosmos
abe 09 21:59:26 <Alster>	<Alster> so, if you have this and want to cut out the word 'kosmos', you do what?  echo '!Hi!this!is!the!kosmos!system!administrators.!'
abe 09 21:59:38 <didleth>	aaaaa.... sorry i wrong understood
abe 09 22:00:36 <didleth>	well, meanded 'cut out' it means everything what is out of kosmos
abe 09 22:00:38 <didleth>	didleth@Atena:~$ echo '!Hi!this!is!the!kosmos!system!administrators.!' | cut -d '!' -f 6
abe 09 22:00:38 <didleth>	kosmos
abe 09 22:00:39 <didleth>	ok?
abe 09 22:00:53 <didleth>	sorry... and thx for the patient for my person
abe 09 22:01:42 <Alster>	yes, well done!
abe 09 22:01:48 <didleth>	sorry so late
abe 09 22:01:54 <Alster>	no problem!
abe 09 22:01:56 <didleth>	more exercice?
abe 09 22:02:01 <Alster>	yes
abe 09 22:02:52 <Alster>	you can also cut out multiple fields, by seperating them with a comma (but no spaces)
abe 09 22:03:05 <didleth>	yhm
abe 09 22:03:44 <Alster>	consecutive fields can be cut out by listing them with minus between them: 2-5 cuts out 2,3,4,5
abe 09 22:03:56 <didleth>	:-/
abe 09 22:04:58 <didleth>	i'm not sure how to understad - can you give exaplme?
abe 09 22:05:35 <Alster>	Ok, here's an example: echo '!Hi!this!is!the!kosmos!system!administrators.!' | cut -d '!' -f 2,6-8
abe 09 22:05:52 <Alster>	$ echo '!Hi!this!is!the!kosmos!system!administrators.!' | cut -d '!' -f 2,6-8
abe 09 22:05:52 <Alster>	Hi!kosmos!system!administrators.
abe 09 22:05:52 <Alster>	$
abe 09 22:06:40 <Alster>	do you understand what "-f 2,,6-8" does?
abe 09 22:06:45 <Alster>	do you understand what "-f 2,6-8" does?
abe 09 22:07:22 <didleth>	it should cut the second word and the 6th word, the 7th word and the 8th word?but it didnt
abe 09 22:07:52 <Alster>	yes it did
abe 09 22:08:09 <Alster>	what's the first field?
abe 09 22:08:20 <didleth>	'hi'
abe 09 22:08:25 <Alster>	no :)
abe 09 22:08:55 <didleth>	! is sepearator right?
abe 09 22:09:08 <Alster>	the first occurence of the delimiter is behind the first field.
abe 09 22:09:17 <Alster>	not before it.
abe 09 22:09:37 <Alster>	yes, ! is the delimiter in our examples.
abe 09 22:09:47 <Alster>	So, what's the first field?
abe 09 22:10:24 <didleth>	!?
abe 09 22:10:38 <Alster>	Hehe, I'm just being mean
abe 09 22:11:09 <Alster>	Ask cut about it if you don't know yourself. How would you ask cut what the first field is?
abe 09 22:11:28 <didleth>	man cut ?
abe 09 22:11:44 <didleth>	wait
abe 09 22:11:49 <Alster>	i mean, how to invoke cut to get the first field
abe 09 22:13:11 <Alster>	just think, no need to try it yet
abe 09 22:13:16 <Alster>	echo '!Hi!this!is!the!kosmos!system!administrators.!' | cut ...
abe 09 22:13:36 <didleth>	-c?
abe 09 22:13:39 <Alster>	what would you put there instead of ... to get the first field of
abe 09 22:13:55 <Alster>	'!Hi!this!is!the!kosmos!system!administrators.!' ?
abe 09 22:14:14 <didleth>	first fild, wait
abe 09 22:14:16 <didleth>	maybe:
abe 09 22:15:26 <Alster>	I asked you for the 6th field earlier, and you did this (correctly):
abe 09 22:15:27 <Alster>	<didleth> didleth@Atena:~$ echo '!Hi!this!is!the!kosmos!system!administrators.!' | cut -d '!' -f 6
abe 09 22:15:27 <Alster>	<didleth> kosmos
abe 09 22:15:39 <Alster>	now i'm asking you for the 1st field ;-)
abe 09 22:15:43 <Alster>	brb, bathroom
abe 09 22:16:09 <didleth>	didleth@Atena:~$ echo '!Hi!this!is!the!kosmos!system!administrators.!' | cut -d '!' -f 1
abe 09 22:16:10 <didleth>	?
abe 09 22:16:26 <txopi>	hi i'm back
abe 09 22:16:49 <txopi>	i have been talking by telephone and having dinner
abe 09 22:16:59 <didleth>	wb txopi - this evening i seems to bee a n00b of the century :(
abe 09 22:17:01 *	txopi is reading the logs
abe 09 22:18:17 <Alster>	didleth: yeay, you did it
abe 09 22:18:25 <Alster>	\o/ :)
abe 09 22:18:40 <didleth>	sorry alster, I'm very bad today :(
abe 09 22:18:42 <Alster>	I said I was being mean. The first field is empty.
abe 09 22:18:56 <Alster>	welcome back txopi
abe 09 22:18:58 <didleth>	yhm, there is no resuls
abe 09 22:19:15 <Alster>	didleth: there is a result, but the result is an empty string.
abe 09 22:19:22 <didleth>	yhm
abe 09 22:19:37 <Alster>	<Alster> the first occurence of the delimiter is behind the first field.
abe 09 22:19:37 <Alster>	<Alster> not before it.
abe 09 22:20:06 <Alster>	! is the delimiter. what's before the first delimiter?
abe 09 22:20:16 <Alster>	nothing!
abe 09 22:20:28 <Alster>	so the first field is empty
abe 09 22:20:45 <Alster>	the second field is: Hi
abe 09 22:20:48 <didleth>	yhm
abe 09 22:21:18 <Alster>	<Alster> do you understand what "-f 2,6-8" does?
abe 09 22:21:18 <Alster>	<didleth> it should cut the second word and the 6th word, the 7th word and the 8th word?but it didnt
abe 09 22:21:18 <Alster>	<Alster> yes it did
abe 09 22:21:28 <Alster>	do you understand now?
abe 09 22:22:11 <didleth>	wait
abe 09 22:23:09 <didleth>	echo '!Hi!this!is!the!kosmos!system!administrators.!' | cut -d '!' -f 2,6-8  and the results is Hi!kosmos!system!administrators
abe 09 22:23:45 <didleth>	so 'hi' should be the second yest
abe 09 22:23:46 <didleth>	ti works
abe 09 22:23:50 <didleth>	*it
abe 09 22:24:01 <didleth>	yes i understand now, sorry it take so long time
abe 09 22:24:03 <Alster>	:) very well
abe 09 22:24:38 <Alster>	imagine there were three ! in the beginning
abe 09 22:24:55 <didleth>	:-/
abe 09 22:24:56 <Alster>	it would shift all the other fields to higher numbers
abe 09 22:25:22 <didleth>	so !!!= ! ! ! ?
abe 09 22:25:39 <didleth>	' ' a field?
abe 09 22:25:56 <Alster>	not exactly
abe 09 22:26:18 <Alster>	the zero-sized (empty) string between !! is a field
abe 09 22:26:22 <didleth>	hmm... maybe a will do it in example
abe 09 22:26:27 <didleth>	aha
abe 09 22:26:28 <didleth>	ok
abe 09 22:26:33 <didleth>	i understand
abe 09 22:27:08 <Alster>	so if you have '!!!' and '!' is your delimiter, how many fields do you have?
abe 09 22:27:18 <txopi>	i am ready and listening
abe 09 22:27:26 <didleth>	3?
abe 09 22:27:30 <txopi>	i read the logs and i understand
abe 09 22:27:49 <didleth>	txopi: respect :]
abe 09 22:28:01 <Alster>	unfortunately not correct ;-)
abe 09 22:28:08 <didleth>	as you see i understand it to very slowly today
abe 09 22:28:14 <didleth>	:-/ 
abe 09 22:28:36 <Alster>	'a!b!c!d'  << how many fields?
abe 09 22:28:36 <didleth>	wait I will do it in exaple
abe 09 22:29:09 <Alster>	'!gfhgfdhghdf!gfhgfhdf!hgfhfgfd'  << how many fields?
abe 09 22:29:30 <Alster>	'ghf!g!!h'  << how many fields?
abe 09 22:29:35 <Alster>	'!!!'  << how many fields?
abe 09 22:29:42 <didleth>	1?
abe 09 22:29:53 <Alster>	the delimiter is '!'
abe 09 22:30:03 <Alster>	no, 1 is not correct
abe 09 22:30:21 <didleth>	4?
abe 09 22:30:24 <Alster>	the answer to all my questions is the same, though
abe 09 22:30:32 <Alster>	yes, well guessed :)
abe 09 22:30:33 <didleth>	wait
abe 09 22:30:38 <Alster>	but why?
abe 09 22:30:52 <didleth>	becuse i should to see
abe 09 22:30:57 <didleth>	before !
abe 09 22:31:01 <didleth>	and after !
abe 09 22:31:22 <Alster>	yes :)
abe 09 22:31:30 <didleth>	so 'one'!'second'!'third'!'fourth ?
abe 09 22:31:47 <Alster>	yes
abe 09 22:32:17 <didleth>	yhm
abe 09 22:32:19 <Alster>	'first field!second filed!third field!fourth field'
abe 09 22:32:35 <didleth>	(in the school i would receive a very bad note ;P)
abe 09 22:32:59 <Alster>	in the schoolwe'd have a break now :)
abe 09 22:33:05 <didleth>	so dilimeter id naver the first and never the last
abe 09 22:33:27 <didleth>	*is never
abe 09 22:33:32 <didleth>	right?
abe 09 22:33:43 <Alster>	the delimiter always seperates two fields. if there is a delimiter, then there is a field before and a field behind it.
abe 09 22:33:55 <didleth>	yhm. ok i understand
abe 09 22:34:27 <Alster>	:) great. One more example, then we can talk to txopi
abe 09 22:34:40 <txopi>	don't worry about me
abe 09 22:34:49 <Alster>	we have the same string again: 
abe 09 22:34:52 <Alster>	echo '!Hi!this!is!the!kosmos!system!administrators.!' | cut ...
abe 09 22:34:57 <txopi>	i'm just remembering
abe 09 22:35:11 <didleth>	txopi: sorry that i take so much time - you will probably take it for backup
abe 09 22:35:12 <txopi>	perhaps i used cut a lot of years ago
abe 09 22:35:34 <txopi>	didleth: today i don't want to do anything related with backup
abe 09 22:35:43 <txopi>	i have too many things in my head
abe 09 22:35:49 <didleth>	Alster: and what i should do in this?
abe 09 22:36:14 <Alster>	didleth: what do you put for ... to get this as a result? systemthisisthekosmos
abe 09 22:36:26 <didleth>	wait
abe 09 22:37:30 <didleth>	O_o
abe 09 22:37:34 <Alster>	oops, sorry, this was a bad example
abe 09 22:38:14 <Alster>	I'd like this instead: this!is!the!kosmos!administrators.
abe 09 22:38:46 <Alster>	didleth: ^
abe 09 22:38:51 <didleth>	ok, wait
abe 09 22:39:07 <Alster>	sure
abe 09 22:40:37 <didleth>	didleth@Atena:~$ echo '!Hi!this!is!the!kosmos!system!administrators.!' | cut -d '!' -f 3-8
abe 09 22:40:37 <didleth>	this!is!the!kosmos!system!administrators.
abe 09 22:40:38 <didleth>	?
abe 09 22:41:05 <Alster>	this is what i asked for:
abe 09 22:41:08 <Alster>	this!is!the!kosmos!administrators
abe 09 22:41:17 <Alster>	this is what you got us:
abe 09 22:41:22 <Alster>	this!is!the!kosmos!system!administrators
abe 09 22:41:31 <didleth>	aha, system, ok sorry
abe 09 22:41:54 <Alster>	:)
abe 09 22:42:15 <Alster>	you were very close 
abe 09 22:42:36 <didleth>	didleth@Atena:~$ echo '!Hi!this!is!the!kosmos!system!administrators.!' | cut -d '!' -f 3-6,8
abe 09 22:42:37 <didleth>	this!is!the!kosmos!administrators.
abe 09 22:42:48 <Alster>	Yes! :)
abe 09 22:42:59 <Alster>	well done!
abe 09 22:43:48 <Alster>	so we csn either extend the exercise or talk to jon qnd tx0pi now. whatever you like.
abe 09 22:43:59 <didleth>	thx, but it was easy only i did it to slowly - i didn't mierit the preise i belive
abe 09 22:44:40 <didleth>	i belive jon and txopi are boring yet so maybe we should joing them 
abe 09 22:44:53 <Alster>	you're doing fine, get yourself a chocolate :)
abe 09 22:45:29 <Alster>	i think you mean they are bored, not boring :)
abe 09 22:45:59 <didleth>	not this time - i can have some self-criticism
abe 09 22:46:14 <didleth>	hehe yes I mean bored
abe 09 22:46:22 <Alster>	:)
abe 09 22:46:28 <Alster>	txopi: are you still with us?
abe 09 22:47:16 <txopi>	didleth: you deserve an award!
abe 09 22:47:22 <txopi>	here i am
abe 09 22:47:26 <Alster>	jonhattan: still around?
abe 09 22:48:18 <Alster>	jonhattan: would you have the time for a short chat on the future of imc canarias' hosting?
abe 09 22:49:55 <Alster>	well the plan was to find out when they want to move/migrate and whether they already have hosting options on their mind, and that EH + PL + Canarias could see how well they'd fit together
abe 09 22:50:10 <Alster>	but maybe it's better for you to discuss this by email
abe 09 22:50:11 <txopi>	Alster, is the typical irc user that lets the client open
abe 09 22:50:15 <Alster>	and in spanish
abe 09 22:50:31 <didleth>	and what do you think
abe 09 22:50:44 <didleth>	to doing meeting of all  imc some day on irc
abe 09 22:50:49 <txopi>	jonhattan, talks english at least as well as me
abe 09 22:50:49 <didleth>	to discuss this
abe 09 22:50:57 <didleth>	of course alster you to :]
abe 09 22:51:04 <Alster>	txopi: yes, but he had replied earlier, so I was just hoping he might still be around
abe 09 22:51:17 <txopi>	perhaps later
abe 09 22:52:26 <Alster>	yes, alright. so didleth + txopi did you want to discuss the possibility of moving to the Nadir Xen DomU first or having backups or something?
abe 09 22:52:43 <Alster>	or should we just continue with the shell commands?
abe 09 22:52:54 <txopi>	i prefer the last option
abe 09 22:52:55 <didleth>	txopi: as you wish
abe 09 22:53:02 <txopi>	i have to think that to do
abe 09 22:53:13 <txopi>	and talk with eh people
abe 09 22:53:24 <didleth>	i mean - i have no preferences what to discuss first so you can decide
abe 09 22:53:41 <txopi>	but the plan is the same as before, move to nadir xen domu as far as we can
abe 09 22:53:49 <didleth>	yhm
abe 09 22:53:54 <Alster>	I have nothing else to say about this topic at this time.
abe 09 22:54:09 <txopi>	we still don't know when is going to be the vm ready, isn't it?
abe 09 22:54:45 <Alster>	I have the feeling the VM won't be ready until you told them what they asked for
abe 09 22:54:54 <Alster>	i.e. the specs
abe 09 22:55:00 <Alster>	RAM and disk space
abe 09 22:56:24 <didleth>	so... should we check how many ram and discspace is on kosmos and asking for this same?
abe 09 22:56:31 <didleth>
abe 09 22:56:41 <didleth>	there were more that 2 imc on kosmos
abe 09 22:56:48 <didleth>	so we don't need so much
abe 09 22:56:49 <didleth>	right?
abe 09 22:57:32 <Alster>	Checking what you are currently using and thinking about whether you could use more or less sounds like the way to go.
abe 09 22:58:20 <txopi>	i agree
abe 09 22:58:33 <Alster>	It doesn't matter whet else may have been hosted there, the only things which matter is how many resources you are currently using and whether those are sufficient (or more than you actually need)
abe 09 22:58:56 <Alster>	kosmos:~# free -m
abe 09 22:58:56 <Alster>	             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
abe 09 22:58:56 <Alster>	Mem:          1138       1119         19          0        151        580
abe 09 22:58:56 <Alster>	-/+ buffers/cache:        387        750
abe 09 22:58:56 <Alster>	Swap:         1952          0       1952
abe 09 22:58:57 <didleth>	df and free?
abe 09 22:58:57 <Alster>	kosmos:~# 
abe 09 22:59:13 <didleth>	well... you was faster;]
abe 09 22:59:18 <Alster>	no swap is being used, but all of your RAM
abe 09 22:59:44 <txopi>	aha
abe 09 23:00:24 <Alster>	this can be a matter of how your daemons are configured, though. I.e. postgresql, apache and tomcat may be configured to consume a fixed amount of RAM
abe 09 23:00:38 <Alster>	and may thus consume more than they actually need
abe 09 23:00:59 <txopi>	so we need 1GB of RAM?
abe 09 23:01:11 <txopi>	more?
abe 09 23:01:23 <Alster>	a lot of this RAM is cache, so you need much less
abe 09 23:02:02 <Alster>	I'd say 750 is enough
abe 09 23:02:20 <txopi>	aha
abe 09 23:02:29 <txopi>	and hard disc?
abe 09 23:02:48 <txopi>	mir stores the mediafiles inside the db insn't it?
abe 09 23:03:03 <txopi>	we can look at the sice of the backups
abe 09 23:03:13 <txopi>	but i don't know were are stored
abe 09 23:03:39 <Alster>	another way to calculate the memory requirement: you can run 'ps auxw' and sum up what each of the processes consumes.
abe 09 23:03:45 <didleth>	the old backups which we delete are not this what are we looking for?
abe 09 23:04:32 <Alster>	for the disk space, we should first determine how much space we need without the local backups.
abe 09 23:04:59 <didleth>	so we how to check how many space takes backups?
abe 09 23:05:02 <Alster>	So it's total disk space - locally stored backups = used disk space
abe 09 23:05:25 <didleth>	the only backups i know are in var
abe 09 23:05:26 <Alster>	du -sch /path/to/local-backups
abe 09 23:05:53 <didleth>	but as i good remember, as i asked about it last time... it was not this
abe 09 23:05:53 <didleth>	wait
abe 09 23:06:31 <Alster>	 /var/backup
abe 09 23:07:20 <txopi>	# du -sch /var/backup
abe 09 23:07:20 <txopi>	103G	/var/backup
abe 09 23:07:20 <txopi>	103G	total
abe 09 23:07:41 <didleth>	txopi: Alster maybe i'm talking something stupid
abe 09 23:07:42 <didleth>	but
abe 09 23:08:37 <txopi>	and how we can know the disc size?
abe 09 23:08:40 <Alster>	"df -h" shows the available disk space on all partitions
abe 09 23:08:49 <txopi>	ah
abe 09 23:08:52 <txopi>	of course!
abe 09 23:08:55 <Alster>	also the total disk space
abe 09 23:08:58 <txopi>	i use it a lot!
abe 09 23:09:00 <didleth>	i belive that the real backups are thois from the last days
abe 09 23:09:32 <txopi>	# df -h
abe 09 23:09:32 <txopi>	Filesystem            Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
abe 09 23:09:32 <txopi>	/dev/md0              958M  100M  809M  12% /
abe 09 23:09:32 <txopi>	tmpfs                 570M     0  570M   0% /lib/init/rw
abe 09 23:09:32 <txopi>	udev                   10M  572K  9.5M   6% /dev
abe 09 23:09:32 <txopi>	tmpfs                 570M     0  570M   0% /dev/shm
abe 09 23:09:32 <txopi>	/dev/md1              471M   24M  424M   6% /boot
abe 09 23:09:32 <txopi>	/dev/md4              135G  133G  2.3G  99% /var
abe 09 23:09:32 <txopi>	/dev/md2              4.7G  572M  3.9G  13% /usr
abe 09 23:10:29 <Alster>	 /dev/md4 is the largest partition
abe 09 23:10:33 <didleth>	so i belive we don't have to have all backups only from the cedemober
abe 09 23:10:38 <Alster>	it's almost full, too
abe 09 23:10:53 <didleth>	but i'm not sure - my kosmos conection its very slowly again
abe 09 23:11:00 <txopi>	0.8 + 0.4 + 2.3 + 3.9 = 7.4 GB
abe 09 23:11:28 <didleth>	/dev/md4              135G  133G  2.3G  99% /var
abe 09 23:11:32 <txopi>	<Alster> So it's total disk space - locally stored backups = used disk space
abe 09 23:11:38 <didleth>	doesn't we delete something? ;]
abe 09 23:11:45 <didleth>	*shouldn't
abe 09 23:11:51 <Alster>	thanks for calculating the total available disk space across all partitions, txopi
abe 09 23:12:05 <didleth>	so kosmos is small
abe 09 23:12:07 <Alster>	didleth: yes, this would be advisable
abe 09 23:12:19 <txopi>	Alster: ouch!
abe 09 23:12:39 <didleth>	if we don't do this now
abe 09 23:12:49 <didleth>	tomorow puyblication will not working again ;-)
abe 09 23:13:10 <didleth>	i belive we didn't do this since upgrating to lenny
abe 09 23:13:31 <txopi>	1 + 0.5 + 135 + 4.7 = 141.2 GB
abe 09 23:13:39 <Alster>	didleth: could be, yes
abe 09 23:13:47 <Alster>	didleth: I never did it
abe 09 23:13:59 <txopi>	141.2 GB - 103 GB = 38.2 GB
abe 09 23:14:01 <didleth>	Alster: i and txopi used to do this
abe 09 23:14:07 <txopi>	we need 40 GB?
abe 09 23:14:18 <didleth>	var was full every 2 weeks udn publication didnt work
abe 09 23:14:28 <didleth>	there was no news article on the site etc
abe 09 23:14:58 <didleth>	but after you and zapata have done ordnung in kosmos - it was no more needed :]
abe 09 23:15:21 <Alster>	I expressed this badly: <Alster> So it's total disk space - locally stored backups = used disk space
abe 09 23:15:24 <didleth>	txopi: 43 maybe?
abe 09 23:15:42 <txopi>	ng made an script that, if i'm not wrong, makes space in the server deleting temporary files or something like that
abe 09 23:15:54 <Alster>	It should have been: Total consumed disk space - locally stored backups = required disk space
abe 09 23:16:20 <didleth>	mathematic again :-/
abe 09 23:16:49 <didleth>	why I need it 7 yeras after school when i forgot all what i have leearned :-/
abe 09 23:17:35 <txopi>	didleth, it is logical what Alster says
abe 09 23:17:44 <Alster>	so we should sum up the values of the 'Used' column for those physical partitions which map to the hard disk (/dev/md* only)
abe 09 23:18:01 <txopi>	now we are using about 142GB of disc space
abe 09 23:18:20 <txopi>	but we are storing the backups inside kosmos, and should be outside
abe 09 23:19:03 <txopi>	so we have to rest the space required for that backups to the space we are using now, and we will get more or less the space we will need in the new server
abe 09 23:19:06 <Alster>	tmpfs + udev + tmpfs are virtual partitions, they are actually part of the RAM, so don't map back to the disk drives
abe 09 23:19:11 <didleth>	txopi: i know, it was only digression - last time i have often a need to caltulate something and i'm not so good in this like in the school-years ;]
abe 09 23:20:29 <txopi>	the backups, although we are going to store them outside, we have to store at least the current backup to scp/rsync it
abe 09 23:21:14 <Alster>	so: /dev/md0 100MB Used + /dev/md1 24MB Used + /dev/md2 572MB used + /dev/md4 133GB used = /dev/md* ~134 MB used
abe 09 23:21:16 <txopi>	and as time goes by we will need more time
abe 09 23:22:34 <Alster>	that's total used disk space currently. 
abe 09 23:22:39 <txopi>	Alster, yes, you are right, i was wrong
abe 09 23:22:40 <Alster>	minus 103GB /var/backup
abe 09 23:22:58 <Alster>	= 31 GB
abe 09 23:23:06 <txopi>	31 GB!
abe 09 23:23:17 <Alster>	see how little space you consume
abe 09 23:23:37 <txopi>	we are so little cmi nodes...
abe 09 23:23:38 <Alster>	...if you don't store 4 months of backups on your HDD ;-)
abe 09 23:23:45 <txopi>	so much work for this... :-)
abe 09 23:24:07 <didleth>	; )
abe 09 23:24:24 <didleth>	well.... maybe its better
abe 09 23:24:44 <txopi>	ok, but apt cache needs time, temp needs a lot of time sometimes, etc.
abe 09 23:24:46 <didleth>	with more backups we would have more worl
abe 09 23:24:49 <didleth>	*work
abe 09 23:25:05 <Alster>	and this already includes both the Database, User uploaded files in the file system or in the database (I think you store them in the DB), your Mir templates, and the operating system.
abe 09 23:25:10 <txopi>	do you think that ask for 40 GB is correct?
abe 09 23:25:22 <didleth>	but which of backup did you calc?
abe 09 23:25:40 <txopi>	no backup
abe 09 23:25:42 <didleth>	all directory bacukup, or only one day for example?
abe 09 23:26:08 <Alster>	you will probably need to store one copy of the database on the file system, to make your backups efficient.
abe 09 23:26:09 <didleth>	:-/ i will try to check how many backups we have
abe 09 23:26:26 <Alster>	so 40 GB can be enough, but I'd better ask for 50GB
abe 09 23:27:07 <Alster>	if you do remote backups, one local database dump should suffice, you should not need a copy of the files
abe 09 23:27:37 <Alster>	but then, you don't currently do remote backups
abe 09 23:27:48 <Alster>	so your mileage may vary
abe 09 23:28:08 <txopi>	aha
abe 09 23:28:36 <Alster>	meaning: you may want to ask nadir for ~100 GB while you don't have remote backups setup yet.
abe 09 23:29:30 <Alster>	so you can have at least one complete local backup copy of everything, maybe two.
abe 09 23:30:55 <txopi>	didleth, they ignore me. can you answer them and say that we need about 750 MB of RAM and 80-100 GB of disc space in the virtual machine?
abe 09 23:31:38 <didleth>	;) txopi i belive they just for mistake didn't sent you the mail
abe 09 23:31:43 <txopi>	i imagine the will give us 1GB of ram and 100GB of disc. i hope...
abe 09 23:31:44 <didleth>	but i write thwem in english
abe 09 23:31:48 <didleth>	if you want
abe 09 23:31:57 <Alster>	txopi: if they don't respond to your first email, it just means they are disorganized and forgot to respond
abe 09 23:32:21 <didleth>	Alster: they write too us
abe 09 23:32:24 <txopi>	didleth, i prefer if you write to them in english so if they answer something not spected i can understand what they say
abe 09 23:32:26 <didleth>	in answer to txopi masil
abe 09 23:32:33 <didleth>	i saw txopis mail below
abe 09 23:32:47 <didleth>	and the begining whas 'hi imcs' or smoething like that
abe 09 23:32:51 <txopi>	i was joking
abe 09 23:32:53 <Alster>	you could write "we need at least ...GB RAM and ...GB disk space, but ---GB RAM and ...GB disk space would be much better".
abe 09 23:32:57 <didleth>	so i belive they wanted to so this to both imc
abe 09 23:33:06 <txopi>	i know what is to have a big disorganization :-)
abe 09 23:33:49 <Alster>	welcome to indymedia, the largest non governmental disorganzation in the world
abe 09 23:33:52 <txopi>	i agree with Alster's proposition
abe 09 23:34:02 <txopi>	:-D
abe 09 23:34:05 <didleth>	"we need at least 750 GB RAM and 50 GB disk space, but 100 GB RAM and 100 GB ?
abe 09 23:34:17 <didleth>	blah
abe 09 23:34:23 <Alster>	wow 100 GB RAM, i'd like that, too
abe 09 23:34:28 <didleth>	lol
abe 09 23:34:32 <txopi>	we need at least 750 GB RAM and 80 GB disk space, but 1 GB RAM and 100 GB
abe 09 23:34:34 <didleth>	sorry i didn't mind it
abe 09 23:34:54 <didleth>	a will corect this if i only stop to laught of this
abe 09 23:35:13 <didleth>	750 gb ram is to much to i belive ; )
abe 09 23:35:26 <didleth>	0,75 gb ?
abe 09 23:35:31 <Alster>	hehe, true, i missed that
abe 09 23:35:50 <Alster>	750 MB and 1GB
abe 09 23:35:55 <didleth>	but...the moral problem for me is
abe 09 23:36:12 <txopi>	ha ha ha
abe 09 23:36:28 <didleth>	we didn't pay them nothing.... it is not unkindly to ask them for so much in this situation...
abe 09 23:36:34 <didleth>	?
abe 09 23:36:43 <txopi>	nadir would shock more with your message than us with their :-D
abe 09 23:36:53 <didleth>	:DDDD
abe 09 23:37:04 <didleth>	thats true ; )
abe 09 23:37:10 <Alster>	i think the lower disk space value can be 60 GB instead of 80 GB. just a suggestion.
abe 09 23:37:22 <didleth>	yhm. so lets 60
abe 09 23:38:01 <Alster>	i don't think it is unkind to ask for this. 1. they asked you about it, 2. it's an emergency, your hard disks are falling apart.
abe 09 23:38:04 <txopi>	ok 60
abe 09 23:38:22 <didleth>	yhm, so ok
abe 09 23:38:37 <txopi>	i would add "as soon as you can"
abe 09 23:38:57 <Alster>	i think the idea to move kosmos to a virtual server was ultimatively theirs
abe 09 23:39:10 <didleth>	we need at least 750 MB RAM and 60 GB disk space, but more would be much better?
abe 09 23:39:16 <txopi>	and also "after migrating to the server, we will start to think wich are our possibilities and if we will move again"
abe 09 23:39:44 <didleth>	txopi: i belive they are ready
abe 09 23:39:47 <txopi>	just a suggestion of course
abe 09 23:39:51 <didleth>	but we aren't ready to migrate
abe 09 23:40:12 <didleth>	i mean, we still don't knwo how to  do this
abe 09 23:40:23 <didleth>	we have to learn very quiqly
abe 09 23:40:50 <Alster>	I can do it this time and we do the next migration together
abe 09 23:40:55 <didleth>	"after migrating to the server, we will start to think wich are our possibilities and if we will move again" this i should write too?
abe 09 23:41:07 <Alster>	so you still have a chance to learn it and we have less time pressure
abe 09 23:41:47 <Alster>	didleth: after migrating to _which_ server?
abe 09 23:42:06 <didleth>	Alster: this was what txopi wrote
abe 09 23:42:31 <didleth>	i'm only ask or he meaned to add it to the list to nadir
abe 09 23:42:52 <Alster>	didleth: yes, i'm just pointing out that it can be better to be more precise. Nadir do not know what we are discussing here.
abe 09 23:43:01 <Alster>	they lack the context
abe 09 23:43:17 <didleth>	but...we still don't know it
abe 09 23:43:32 <didleth>	migration to soem drupal-server ?
abe 09 23:43:34 <txopi>	you are right Alster 
abe 09 23:44:29 <txopi>	"after migrating to the domU you kindly offer to us, we will start to think wich are our possibilities and if we will move again"
abe 09 23:44:40 <txopi>	better?
abe 09 23:44:53 <didleth>	aaaa.... so did you meaned
abe 09 23:45:07 *	Alster thinks this is probably better understandable to Nadir
abe 09 23:46:09 <didleth>	we need at least 750 MB RAM and 60 GB disk space, but more would be much better. after migrating to the domU you kindly offer to us, we will start to think wich are our possibilities and if we will move again
abe 09 23:47:00 <txopi>	we need at least 750 MB RAM and 60 GB disk space, but 100 GB RAM and 100 GB would be much better. after migrating to the domU you kindly offer to us, we will start to think wich are our possibilities and if we will move again
abe 09 23:47:26 <didleth>	i think not suggest them how many more we need - if they would be so kindly to give us more, they can choise how much - but you are geeks so you know the things better
abe 09 23:49:49 <Alster>	so txopi insits in 100 x 1024 MB RAM
abe 09 23:49:55 <Alster>	;-)
abe 09 23:50:05 <didleth>	:D
abe 09 23:50:46 <didleth>	and nadir answer: sorry, we cant give you 100 gb, could it be 50 gb? ;D
abe 09 23:51:00 <didleth>	(RAM of course)
abe 09 23:51:27 <txopi>	ok
abe 09 23:51:34 <didleth>	anyway - you both think its good to write how many more we need, right?
abe 09 23:51:37 <txopi>	remove the ram maximun
abe 09 23:51:51 <txopi>	but i think we should suggest 100 GB
abe 09 23:52:10 <Alster>	you could explain that you'd prefer to have 1GB RAM for faster processing and 100 GB disk space to store a local backup while remote backups don't work. And that remote backups are difficult from kosmos since the connection drops regularly even with bandwisth limiting at nights.
abe 09 23:52:13 <didleth>	txopi: now are you joking
abe 09 23:52:17 <didleth>	right?:-/
abe 09 23:52:36 <didleth>	100 gb ram?
abe 09 23:52:39 <Alster>	yes you could remove the RAM maximum
abe 09 23:52:48 <didleth>	hehe ok
abe 09 23:52:53 <txopi>	because if we don't have them, we can have problems before we set the remote backups, or if the connection to the remote backups fails
abe 09 23:53:46 <Alster>	didleth: i think txopi was suggesting that you do want to ask for up to 100GB hard disk space if possible, but not for up to 1GB RAM
abe 09 23:53:49 <txopi>	well, you understand me 
abe 09 23:53:59 <didleth>	can i admin to something?
abe 09 23:54:02 <txopi>	yes
abe 09 23:54:06 <txopi>	that's what i mean
abe 09 23:54:18 <txopi>	thank you Alster 
abe 09 23:54:25 <didleth>	ok now i understand
abe 09 23:54:45 <didleth>	i will try to write it and ask harcesz to do this - he is good in english
abe 09 23:55:14 <didleth>	but... can i have stupid question?
abe 09 23:55:23 <Alster>	you're welcome txopi 
abe 09 23:55:33 <Alster>	didleth: don't hold back :)
abe 09 23:55:50 <txopi>	no you can't!
abe 09 23:56:08 <Alster>	there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers ;-)
abe 09 23:56:12 *	txopi is making the heckler (or that harcz said :-)
abe 09 23:56:26 <didleth>	:-/ which one of you i should listen ;-/
abe 09 23:56:48 <txopi>	didleth, we are joking
abe 09 23:56:53 <txopi>	make your question
abe 09 23:57:01 <txopi>	ask whatever you want!
abe 09 23:57:10 <Alster>	txopis' answer was just to proove what I said ;-)
abe 09 23:57:17 <txopi>	if we can we will answer
abe 09 23:57:22 <didleth>	what realy are remote backups? I heard its a lot of times, translate 'remote' in polish...but this deosn't mean nothing for me still
abe 09 23:57:49 <txopi>	Alster, will give you a proffesional answer
abe 09 23:57:55 <txopi>	...
abe 09 23:58:07 <Alster>	it means that you copy your database and files to another server, where they can be safe even if your main servers' hard disks fail
abe 09 23:58:17 <Alster>	txopi: no ;-)
abe 09 23:58:43 <didleth>	aha
abe 09 23:58:48 <didleth>	kopie zapasowe :D
abe 09 23:59:04 <Alster>	i'm sure about this
abe 09 23:59:14 <didleth>	if i only found a man who invite english ;>>>>
abe 09 23:59:19 <txopi>	Alster, proffesional or not, it worked!
abe 09 23:59:29 <Alster>	lucky me :)
abe 09 23:59:39 <didleth>	txopi: i prefer understand that professional ;P
abe 09 23:59:53 <didleth>	so ok no i know everything 
abe 10 00:00:06 <Alster>	just on time
abe 10 00:00:09 <Alster>	BEEEEP
abe 10 00:00:16 <didleth>	; )
abe 10 00:00:18 <txopi>	we make backups of the database everyday
abe 10 00:00:28 <didleth>	we never ;D
abe 10 00:00:39 <didleth>	nobody knows how to do this
abe 10 00:00:46 <txopi>	but if the hard disc is broken (or seized), we lose all the data
abe 10 00:00:50 <didleth>	well... szczym knows, but szczym is szczym
abe 10 00:01:16 <didleth>	aaaa.... 'we' you meant kosmos, not imc-eh?
abe 10 00:01:21 <txopi>	but if the backup is located in other machine, the possibility to lose the data is much lower
abe 10 00:01:31 <txopi>	yes, kosmos
abe 10 00:01:45 <didleth>	yhm, i understand
abe 10 00:01:47 <txopi>	but particularly imc-pl and imc-eh
abe 10 00:02:02 <didleth>	and i have another stupid question...
abe 10 00:02:35 <txopi>	Alster, told you that they arent stupid questions
abe 10 00:02:37 <didleth>	if some day kosmos is dead... it is possibility to have database from traven?
abe 10 00:02:59 <didleth>	so ok: n00bish questions
abe 10 00:03:25 <Alster>	hmm I'm not sure I understand this question
abe 10 00:03:59 <didleth>	ok, i mean
abe 10 00:04:07 <didleth>	one day: everything on kosmos is los
abe 10 00:04:11 <Alster>	By 'dead', do you mean 'deliberately taken out of service' or 'broken, such as the hard disk drives having failed'?
abe 10 00:04:13 <didleth>	*lost
abe 10 00:04:20 <didleth>	but - we have mirror on traver
abe 10 00:04:43 <didleth>	have long there is no synchronisation between kosmos and traven, its still there
abe 10 00:04:55 <didleth>	but its mirror only
abe 10 00:04:57 <Alster>	I think traven is a mirror for the static web pages which are created on kosmos out of the contents of the database and your Mir template files
abe 10 00:05:17 <Alster>	but I don't think the database contents nor the template files are stored on traven.
abe 10 00:05:51 <didleth>	so we would have to copy every one articles from one by one mirror-server?
abe 10 00:06:02 <didleth>	so ok i understand its no rerscue
abe 10 00:06:13 <Alster>	I can be wrong there, but I don'T think there is a regular process on kosmos which copies database + templates to traven.
abe 10 00:07:11 <didleth>	yhm, i belive - its only becouse i have no idea about databases so i just don't know how it works
abe 10 00:07:26 <didleth>	blah
abe 10 00:08:04 <didleth>	i mean, i asked about this only becouse i don't know nothing about, not that i belive becouse of this
abe 10 00:08:11 <txopi>	Alster, you are right the mirror has only the static shtml files
abe 10 00:09:06 <txopi>	didleth, think about the static files as photographs of documents
abe 10 00:09:23 <didleth>	like in the reality :-/ i can hit a man but not his reflection in mirror :-/
abe 10 00:09:35 <txopi>	if you have the ODT file you can change it quickly and generate PDF's, take photos of the pages, etc.
abe 10 00:09:54 <didleth>	yhm
abe 10 00:10:00 <didleth>	i understand
abe 10 00:10:09 <txopi>	but if you just have the rendered file, you have to pick each data one by one and but into the form
abe 10 00:10:11 <didleth>	good analogy
abe 10 00:10:11 <txopi>	ah ok
abe 10 00:11:08 <txopi>	if kosmos hard disk dies, we will have at least the tranven photo
abe 10 00:11:10 <txopi>	that's true
abe 10 00:11:10 <Alster>	yes, good analogy. i was trying to come up with one but failed.
abe 10 00:11:33 <Alster>	but you won't be happy with it
abe 10 00:11:44 <txopi>	but if we backup the database, we can put mir running again in just some hours
abe 10 00:12:17 <didleth>	Alster: but yourtanalogy was really good!
abe 10 00:12:17 <txopi>	that's why is so important to make the "remote backups"
abe 10 00:14:29 *	didleth is wondering or she should go sleep now (weak up at 6.00) or translating info from cop15 :-/
abe 10 00:15:08 <Alster>	we're 15 mins late, so I think you should go to bed. ;-)
abe 10 00:15:38 <didleth>	yhm, i only have a shover and make planner
abe 10 00:16:07 <didleth>	and about cop15 i can translate tomorow evening
abe 10 00:17:02 <didleth>	(do you have sometimes experience, that activism/indymedia takes you all privat time? ;]
abe 10 00:17:16 <didleth>	brb/shower
abe 10 00:17:20 <Alster>	and next time I have another mean 'cut' example for you, and we can look into 'tr' to get rid of the delimiters in the output.
abe 10 00:17:33 <didleth>	yhm, ok
abe 10 00:18:00 <Alster>	have a great whistle in the shower
abe 10 00:18:32 <didleth>	txopi: i will have shower right now so if you go out ni this time - have a nice dream/sleep :]
abe 10 00:18:43 <didleth>	thx Alster ; )
abe 10 00:18:51 <txopi>	i am already sleeping
abe 10 00:18:56 <txopi>	this is adream
abe 10 00:19:12 <txopi>	nadir's answer was just a joke
abe 10 00:19:14 <txopi>	isn't it?
abe 10 00:19:21 <Alster>	:)
abe 10 00:19:24 <didleth>	txopi: so meybe go to bad? computer is to hard i think ;-)
abe 10 00:19:42 <txopi>	good night to everybody...
abe 10 00:19:49 <didleth>	txopi: no it wasn't - but it will be everything ok
abe 10 00:19:55 <didleth>	we can make it :]
abe 10 00:20:17 <txopi>	obama says in other way...
abe 10 00:20:24 <didleth>	(i will say it better but no idea how yto say in english)
abe 10 00:22:01 <didleth>	Alster: you will talk with your server-collective?
abe 10 00:22:54 <didleth>	(I mean tachanka)
abe 10 00:23:40 <didleth>	and txopi - don't worry, really - we have to do this, anothere way indymedia will be no working - so we have no another choise ;P
abe 10 00:23:47 <didleth>	ok i go to the showe :-|
abe 10 00:31:11 <Alster>	didleth: yes, I'll talk to Tachanka. Thanks for the reminder

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