Skill sharing session 9 (log)

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jan  7 20:51:10 2010

urt 07 20:51:10 <txopi>	1. Set time constraints for this meeting
urt 07 20:51:29 <txopi>	finish at 00:00?
urt 07 20:52:14 <Alster>	i will need to quit after 2 hours today
urt 07 20:52:15 <didleth2>	for me ok
urt 07 20:52:23 <didleth2>	for my dog more ok that for me ;]
urt 07 20:52:24 <Alster>	i need yet to fix my virtualization setup here
urt 07 20:52:45 <txopi>	so until 23:00 Alster?
urt 07 20:52:47 <Alster>	but i don't mind you going on
urt 07 20:53:07 <Alster>	up to you, but i'll leave at 23:00
urt 07 20:53:20 <txopi>	ok
urt 07 20:53:21 <txopi>	2. Do we want a summary or IRC logs of this meeting? If so, who volunteers to do it?
urt 07 20:53:33 <txopi>	i can do it this time
urt 07 20:53:40 <txopi>	i propose myself!
urt 07 20:53:43 <txopi>	:-D
urt 07 20:53:54 <Alster>	you won the big pize!
urt 07 20:54:13 <Alster>	prize
urt 07 20:54:16 <didleth2>	hehe, i said yesterday
urt 07 20:54:18 <Alster>	thanks
urt 07 20:54:30 <didleth2>	i will do the next 3 logs -meeting ;P
urt 07 20:54:52 <txopi>	didleth, finally you found the logs, isn't it?
urt 07 20:55:07 <didleth2>	well.... right, sorry, didn't thoungt about this
urt 07 20:55:10 <didleth2>	;]
urt 07 20:55:22 <txopi>	ok
urt 07 20:55:30 <txopi>	let me take the logs this time
urt 07 20:55:33 <Alster>	there's more volunteer work in case you'd like some: 3. Next meeting, and who volunteers to prepare the agenda for it?
urt 07 20:56:08 <Alster>	we also need the meeting planner extended
urt 07 20:56:10 <didleth2>	next meeting - in next week?
urt 07 20:56:31 <didleth2>	or yet in this week?
urt 07 20:56:31 <txopi>	i think that we can do the next meeting this week
urt 07 20:57:09 <txopi>	if it isn't at saturday night, almost any other moment is ok for me
urt 07 20:57:34 <txopi>	neither sunday morning :-)
urt 07 20:57:40 *	Alster has changed the topic to: : | | |
urt 07 20:57:59 *	txopi has changed the topic to: | | |
urt 07 20:58:24 <didleth2>	so maybe saturday 1.00 or sunday 15.00?
urt 07 20:58:29 <Alster>	you're late :P
urt 07 20:58:57 <txopi>	i removed the extra ": "
urt 07 20:59:12 <Alster>	oh thanks
urt 07 20:59:24 <Alster>	sunday sounds good to me
urt 07 20:59:58 <didleth2>	ok, that sunday 15.00
urt 07 21:00:17 <txopi>	ok
urt 07 21:01:06 <txopi>	wait
urt 07 21:01:22 <txopi>	no, don't wait
urt 07 21:01:39 <txopi>	that hour is not the best for me but as i see didleth can't later
urt 07 21:01:45 <txopi>	so ok, sunday 15:00
urt 07 21:02:13 <Alster>	txopi: i think you are mixing up sunday with saturday
urt 07 21:02:24 <txopi>	mmmh
urt 07 21:02:42 <txopi>	yes, you are right!
urt 07 21:02:43 <didleth2>	wait txopi
urt 07 21:02:45 <Alster>	we all do have time on sunday throughout the day according to the planner
urt 07 21:02:57 <didleth2>	i can later on sunday - niedziela
urt 07 21:03:04 <didleth2>	a cant later in sobota
urt 07 21:03:13 <txopi>	i would like to make the session later so i can do other things on sunday
urt 07 21:03:19 <didleth2>	thatwhy i thing english days names are dfficult ;P
urt 07 21:03:24 <txopi>	mmmh
urt 07 21:03:29 <didleth2>	ok, maybe 17.00?
urt 07 21:03:32 <Alster>	txopi: suggest a time, please
urt 07 21:03:50 <txopi>	didleth, 17 o'clock is ok with you?
urt 07 21:03:57 <didleth2>	i dont want to make it to late to have time to preper to the next meeting
urt 07 21:04:02 <didleth2>	17 ok
urt 07 21:04:06 <txopi>	no
urt 07 21:04:10 <txopi>	forget this
urt 07 21:04:14 <txopi>	forget all
urt 07 21:04:27 <txopi>	if you prefer 15:00 is ok for me
urt 07 21:04:36 <txopi>	as ok as 17:00 :-)
urt 07 21:04:50 <txopi>	so
urt 07 21:04:51 <txopi>	finally
urt 07 21:05:02 <txopi>	sunday at 15:00 next session
urt 07 21:05:04 <txopi>	ok?
urt 07 21:05:04 <didleth2>	so 16.00 maybe?:]
urt 07 21:05:13 <didleth2>	it between 15 and 17 :]
urt 07 21:05:23 <txopi>	xDD
urt 07 21:05:25 <didleth2>	i can at 15 and at 17
urt 07 21:05:25 <txopi>	ooook
urt 07 21:05:32 <didleth2>	like you want ;-)
urt 07 21:05:38 <txopi>	16 is ok
urt 07 21:05:46 <didleth2>	ok, so sunday 16.00
urt 07 21:06:35 <didleth2>	Alster: ok for you?
urt 07 21:06:54 <Alster>	yes, fine with me. we also need a volunteer for extending the calendar.
urt 07 21:07:46 <Alster>	this can wait until sunday, though
urt 07 21:08:00 <txopi>	yes, it can wait
urt 07 21:08:04 <Alster>	but it would mean we cannot decide on next meeting on sunday
urt 07 21:08:24 <txopi>	ok, i will extend it
urt 07 21:08:54 <Alster>	ok i'll do it next time again
urt 07 21:09:30 <Alster>	any news on the virtual server?
urt 07 21:09:41 <didleth2>	no but as i belived
urt 07 21:09:56 <txopi>	4. Server hosting (Nadir virtual server status; Tachanka)
urt 07 21:09:58 <didleth2>	they said that we should let them know when we are ready to migrate
urt 07 21:10:18 <txopi>	who?
urt 07 21:10:24 <Alster>	regarding tachanka, i think i already said tachanka is offering to host you in general. we will need to define our requirements and send them to the tachanka collective mailing list, yet
urt 07 21:10:39 <txopi>	aha
urt 07 21:10:45 <didleth2>	nadir in the last time
urt 07 21:10:58 <txopi>	can someone explain to me a bit about tachanka?
urt 07 21:11:08 <Alster>	i should be able to
urt 07 21:11:14 <didleth2>	 added tachanka to the agenda, becouse i see something on irc before christmas but we didn't talking about this yet ;-)
urt 07 21:11:23 <didleth2>	anyway very thx Alster :]
urt 07 21:11:28 <txopi>	is an autonomous server? where is located? is big/small? who run the server?
urt 07 21:11:54 <didleth2>	and like txopi we would to know something more about tachanka
urt 07 21:12:26 <Alster>	tachanka is a (leftist/radical) tech collective. members are from europe, north and south america
urt 07 21:12:32 <txopi>	my plan was that other people from indyeh take the responsibility to start searching other server, but nobody answered so...
urt 07 21:12:56 <Alster>	i could provide you with more info in a non-public chat
urt 07 21:13:04 <Alster>	i am a tachanka member
urt 07 21:13:13 <txopi>	ok
urt 07 21:13:30 <txopi>	if the server/s is/are not located at spain is ok for me
urt 07 21:13:32 <Alster>	tachanka currently maintains 4 servers, some of which are shared with other collectives
urt 07 21:13:51 <txopi>	anyway, i would like to know the state because legal issues
urt 07 21:14:22 <txopi>	but you can give me that info in private, of course :-)
urt 07 21:14:33 <Alster>	these servers contain virtual servers which either run internal services, services for other initiatives or are maintained by third parties on their own
urt 07 21:15:14 <txopi>	in the people's global action (pga) two years ago i didn't heard about tachanka collective. is new?
urt 07 21:15:29 <Alster>	i think we sent out some nice summary on our current state in a recent newsletter
urt 07 21:15:29 <txopi>	Alster, it sound good :-)
urt 07 21:15:34 <didleth2>	Alster: maybe if you will have some time you just write to me and txopi private-mails about tachanka?
urt 07 21:15:45 <Alster>	i can look it up later an put it in a pastebin
urt 07 21:16:11 <Alster>	did you read the website, yet?
urt 07 21:16:12 <txopi>	but you are going to paste publi information?
urt 07 21:16:21 <didleth2>	its no so very important at the moment - i mean we have to migrate to xen first so i understand if you have no time, i belive we can wait
urt 07 21:16:24 <txopi>	if not, perhaps it is better an encrypted message
urt 07 21:16:39 <Alster>	the newsletter is sent to members, it is public info basically
urt 07 21:16:49 <txopi>	ok, perfect
urt 07 21:16:53 <txopi>	thank you Alster 
urt 07 21:16:58 <txopi>	you are a crack!
urt 07 21:17:00 <txopi>	:-D
urt 07 21:18:00 *	txopi is reading
urt 07 21:18:10 <Alster>
urt 07 21:18:15 <didleth2>	any thanks for the help and support us in tachanka Alster :]
urt 07 21:19:56 <Alster>	oh its not just me, it's a collective decision
urt 07 21:20:05 <txopi>	tachanka is the name of a weapon? (i know this question is a bit off-topic, kump it if you want)
urt 07 21:20:12 <Alster>	and it still depends on the required resources
urt 07 21:20:35 <didleth2>	Alster: yhm, so you can thx for the collective
urt 07 21:21:02 <didleth2>	and later you can sent us more info and requiremensts, right?
urt 07 21:21:13 <Alster>	txopi: yes, if you want so, there's an image on the front page
urt 07 21:21:28 <Alster>	txopi: technology can be a weapon, too
urt 07 21:21:36 <txopi>	yes, of course
urt 07 21:21:53 <Alster>	txopi: and weapons can be used for good and bad causes
urt 07 21:22:07 <txopi>	but the image has no history/country related connotations, isn0t it?
urt 07 21:22:21 <txopi>	Alster seems Obama ;-)
urt 07 21:22:44 <Alster>	didleth2: the idea was that we, THIS working group, define our requirements, then send them to tachanka and tachanka checks whether these can be met.
urt 07 21:23:06 <Alster>	i.e. whether tachanka has the resources it takes to host you
urt 07 21:23:16 <txopi>	logical
urt 07 21:23:33 <txopi>	you already send the needed resources or do you want us to do it?
urt 07 21:23:39 <didleth2>	Alster: you mean: kosmos,imc-pl, imc-eh, imc-canarias and la plata (do i good remember?)?
urt 07 21:23:52 <Alster>	if you want some more info on tachanka please just ask me in private or send email to me asking specific questions
urt 07 21:24:11 <txopi>	Alster, ok
urt 07 21:24:16 <txopi>	didleth, good memory!
urt 07 21:24:28 <txopi>	la plaNa
urt 07 21:24:40 <didleth2>	sorry txopi ; )
urt 07 21:24:48 <Alster>	txopi: i have only sent an unspecific request for hosting so far, we need yet to send a specifc request stating the requirements for the 'new' kosmos
urt 07 21:25:48 <txopi>	in that server we will can run php, etc, isn't it?
urt 07 21:25:58 <Alster>	from what i understood the idea is to have a common server for these four IMCs which means the resources add up.
urt 07 21:26:12 <didleth2>	Alster: will drupal work in tachanka?
urt 07 21:26:26 <Alster>	tachanka usually provides virtual servers based on
urt 07 21:26:56 <Alster>	it's not complete virtualization, so they share the same kernel and networking is not virtualized
urt 07 21:27:22 <Alster>	it is more a container such as freebsd jails
urt 07 21:27:26 <didleth2>	btw txopi one think we didn't talking about yet - which sql we want to have in drupal, mysql or postgresql, but that we can talk in another time - i only suggest its good all imc have this same format (i belive it woudl be good)
urt 07 21:28:35 <Alster>	i think tachanka would also offer a linux-vserver guest to you, which would mean you could run pretty much any software you like there, including php
urt 07 21:30:04 <didleth2>	and if its not unkindly question... how many it is payd for the tachanka and how many collective used it?
urt 07 21:30:20 <Alster>	you're always welcome to ask general questions regarding tachanka in #tachanka, too
urt 07 21:31:02 <txopi>	didleth, we will talk about the sql server and many other details in a future phase
urt 07 21:31:03 <didleth2>	i mean - if we would ask for some money on imc-finance or somewhere, we should know more or less how many we need
urt 07 21:31:14 <txopi>	right now i think we have enought with the skill sharing and the backups :-)
urt 07 21:31:14 <Alster>	this would be a good question for private message/email, which i'll respond to after the meeting since i din't have the current info available
urt 07 21:31:21 <didleth2>	; )
urt 07 21:31:34 <txopi>	ok Alster 
urt 07 21:31:50 <didleth2>	right, sorry - so make continue with backups
urt 07 21:32:01 <Alster>	'this' being the question of money and number of hosted collectives
urt 07 21:32:11 <txopi>	Alster, i think i undertand what you say about the virtualization type
urt 07 21:32:23 <Alster>	great txopi  :)
urt 07 21:32:29 <txopi>	it sounds to me similar to other software witch name i don't remember
urt 07 21:32:47 <Alster>	openvz and lxr are similar
urt 07 21:32:48 <txopi>	vmode or something like that
urt 07 21:33:08 <txopi>	i have heard about openvz
urt 07 21:33:12 <Alster>	UML (user mode linux) was an earlier attempt to achieve something similar
urt 07 21:33:17 <didleth2>	ok Alster
urt 07 21:33:36 <Alster>	yes i'm going off-topic, sorry
urt 07 21:33:36 <txopi>	yes! user mode linux
urt 07 21:34:00 <txopi>	it isn't so off-topic, but is ok
urt 07 21:34:05 <Alster>	you're welcome to subscribe to the tachanka-announce mailing list if you feel like it.
urt 07 21:34:15 <txopi>	i will do
urt 07 21:35:00 <Alster>	so we should define our resource requirements
urt 07 21:35:15 <txopi>	done
urt 07 21:35:18 <Alster>	or at least sum up what needs to get hosted
urt 07 21:35:24 <txopi>	yes
urt 07 21:35:34 <txopi>	for that, we should talk with jonathan
urt 07 21:35:42 <didleth2>	yhm
urt 07 21:36:01 <txopi>	i will send him a message to come to a irc sesion like this
urt 07 21:36:12 <Alster>	i think EH + PL already summed up their current requirements for hosting Mir.
urt 07 21:36:15 <txopi>	so we can decide the requierements
urt 07 21:36:45 <txopi>	one of the first things jon will ask is about money
urt 07 21:37:14 <Alster>	the question would be when the migration to another codebases takes place for each of the 4 IMCs and which systems will need to be run concurrently
urt 07 21:37:24 <txopi>	can we have a more or less idea about hosting prize before chating with jon?
urt 07 21:37:46 <Alster>	let me see, i think we had an internal suggestion
urt 07 21:38:00 <txopi>	i think i can asnwer that
urt 07 21:38:39 <txopi>	the server will run just drupal
urt 07 21:39:06 <txopi>	4-5 drupal installations (jon says that for this case is better than 1 multisite drupal installation)
urt 07 21:39:22 <txopi>	so the server can be mysql, postgresql...
urt 07 21:39:36 <didleth2>	txopi: kosmos is postgresql
urt 07 21:39:44 <txopi>	laplana runs over drupal right now, so the migration should be the easiest
urt 07 21:40:09 <didleth2>	if the another 2 imcs are postgresql to it might be easier to migrate 
urt 07 21:40:12 <txopi>	canarias is working with dada but the idea is to migrate to drupal very soon
urt 07 21:40:12 <didleth2>	but i'm not sure
urt 07 21:40:19 <txopi>	jon can do that quickly
urt 07 21:40:50 <didleth2>	txopi: any idea when eh can migrate?
urt 07 21:41:11 <txopi>	there was another little imc that now has no server al all (!) and that imc, if join us, will use a drupal from the beginning (no migration)
urt 07 21:41:17 <didleth2>	i learn drupal but its seems very scary and the learn is going very slowly to me
urt 07 21:42:00 <txopi>	and us, i understand that we will migrate from nadir's machine to the new server from mir to drupal (big change)
urt 07 21:42:35 <txopi>	but we still haven't moved from kosmos, so probably we are the teams that need more time to make the migration
urt 07 21:42:48 <Alster>	since we dont have your requirements yet it's hard to tell how much that would amount to. but i guess it would probably be somewhere between 20 and 30 usd per month for this server (so for all 4 imcs)
urt 07 21:43:07 <txopi>	including bandwith?
urt 07 21:43:12 <didleth2>	and its possible that the 2 or 3 imcs migrate quickly and wee later?
urt 07 21:43:41 <didleth2>	usd = dollar in american?
urt 07 21:43:43 <Alster>	including shared bandwidth as long as it's not uncommonly much.
urt 07 21:43:48 <txopi>	i think it would be the best, because jonathan is a sysadmin and can prepare all for us ;-)))))
urt 07 21:44:01 <Alster>	usd= united states dollar
urt 07 21:44:38 <txopi>	i think is cheap
urt 07 21:44:44 <didleth2>	for all imc, you mean every imc has to pay 20-30, so together 80-120?
urt 07 21:45:08 <didleth2>	P
urt 07 21:45:15 <txopi>	i don't know very much about this things but i think it is a good prize
urt 07 21:45:15 <Alster>	didleth2: no, the other way around.
urt 07 21:45:29 <didleth2>	I have to check how many zloty dollars cost to have so idea
urt 07 21:45:57 <didleth2>	so - 20-30/4, 5-8 dolars pro month?
urt 07 21:46:09 <txopi>	30*12*0.8=288 euros/year?
urt 07 21:46:37 <Alster>	if 1 USD = 0.8 EUR then yes
urt 07 21:46:42 <txopi>	ok
urt 07 21:46:47 <txopi>	good prize
urt 07 21:47:20 <didleth2>	288*4=1152
urt 07 21:47:25 <didleth2>	sound great
urt 07 21:47:28 <Alster>	and its just a guess so far, not based on anything else than my personal assumptions
urt 07 21:47:46 <didleth2>	(if i will not lost my job, i should be able to do this)
urt 07 21:47:54 <Alster>	i.e. the actualy offer by tachanka may differ
urt 07 21:48:03 <didleth2>	yhm
urt 07 21:48:06 <didleth2>	we understand
urt 07 21:48:17 <Alster>	didleth2: why *4?
urt 07 21:48:26 <Alster>	you want 4 such servers?
urt 07 21:48:30 <txopi>	of course Alster, is just an initial measure, nor more
urt 07 21:48:37 <didleth2>	Alster: euro is cirka 4 zlote
urt 07 21:48:37 <txopi>	xD
urt 07 21:48:46 <txopi>	ah
urt 07 21:48:48 <Alster>	ah ok
urt 07 21:49:12 <didleth2>	well, amybe a little bit more,m but its still cheaper like this what pays imc-de for server as i good remember
urt 07 21:49:19 <txopi>	so, it doensn't seem that the money will be a problem to decide the server
urt 07 21:49:40 <txopi>	tachanka is an autonomous server so that is a plus
urt 07 21:50:08 <txopi>	with this info, i can talk with jon before he finds another server :-)
urt 07 21:50:27 <didleth2>	yhm, is collective not comercial so its ideological  good
urt 07 21:51:02 <txopi>	to find the money will be a problem, of course, but i mean that the proce offered by tachanka doesn't seem to be a problem to choose that place
urt 07 21:51:09 <Alster>	right, whatever you do, dont host on a rented server, this will not make you happy.
urt 07 21:52:23 <Alster>	ok, so i understand you two will get in touch with jon to check your four imc's requirements and send them to or
urt 07 21:52:30 <txopi>	so, what do you think about making a chat sesion with us and jonathan and perhaps any other people from laplana to talk about hardware requirements?
urt 07 21:52:48 <Alster>	i can join you there if you like
urt 07 21:52:57 <txopi>	i would like :-)
urt 07 21:53:17 <Alster>	ok, can you schedule this?
urt 07 21:53:22 <txopi>	yes
urt 07 21:53:25 <Alster>	or organise it rather
urt 07 21:53:38 <Alster>	cool
urt 07 21:53:57 <txopi>	i will move it thought kosmos mailing list so all us can schedule the chat sesion
urt 07 21:54:04 <didleth2>	yhm
urt 07 21:54:25 <txopi>	more things about servers?
urt 07 21:54:37 <Alster>	not from my end
urt 07 21:55:03 <Alster>	well one more note actually
urt 07 21:55:05 <didleth2>	i belive it about nadir - we should just
urt 07 21:55:17 <didleth2>	let them now when we are ready to migrate
urt 07 21:55:34 <didleth2>	that is what i uderstand the last time - they ask how many space we need
urt 07 21:55:51 <txopi>	yes, i have pending to send a message to nadir explaining that
urt 07 21:55:53 <didleth2>	and let them know when they are ready
urt 07 21:56:12 <txopi>	i didn't do it yet, so i will do soon (probably tomorrow!)
urt 07 21:56:18 <Alster>	i did talk to one of nadir at ccc, to check whether he knows what's up with the DomU. he was not involved in this himself but said he'd check, then forgot about it, told me he'd check when he's travelling home, and i have not heard from him since
urt 07 21:56:58 <Alster>	oh so they are still lacking information from you, ok
urt 07 21:57:20 <txopi>	don't worry Alster, i will send a message with the information
urt 07 21:57:21 <txopi>	ok
urt 07 21:57:41 *	txopi haven't been at CCC, but would like to...
urt 07 21:57:57 <didleth2>	well
urt 07 21:58:13 *	txopi saw film 23 yesterday.... again :-)
urt 07 21:58:15 <didleth2>	i undersnad that they just wait to we tell them when we want migrate
urt 07 21:58:26 <didleth2>	but you can confirme this txopi if you want
urt 07 21:58:44 <didleth2>	so ok - the next point?
urt 07 21:58:56 <txopi>	they also need to know how much hard disk space we need, etc.
urt 07 21:59:12 <txopi>	"thanks for your kindly offert. What about RAM and Space we need - we
urt 07 21:59:12 <txopi>	(imc-eh and imc-pl) need at least 750 MB RAM and 60 GB disk space, but
urt 07 21:59:12 <txopi>	more RAM and 100 GB would be much better - in this case we could make
urt 07 21:59:12 <txopi>	the remote backups. Would it be ok for you? After migrating to the domU
urt 07 21:59:12 <txopi>	you kindly offer to us, we will start to think which are our
urt 07 21:59:12 <txopi>	possibilities and if we will move again"
urt 07 21:59:52 <txopi>	i copied this information from the previous irc session
urt 07 22:00:00 <txopi>	ok, next point
urt 07 22:00:14 <Alster>	so i have one hour left. what shall we work on now?
urt 07 22:00:26 <Alster>	i'll restart my firewall quickly, might get disconnected shortly
urt 07 22:00:38 <txopi>	5. Skill Sharing
urt 07 22:00:44 <didleth2>	txopi: this is the information that was sended to nadir
urt 07 22:00:54 <txopi>	didleth, yes
urt 07 22:01:18 <didleth2>	backup?
urt 07 22:01:26 <txopi>	i have no preferences about what we can do now
urt 07 22:01:30 <txopi>	what you prefer
urt 07 22:02:01 <Alster>	ok, looks like i'm fine
urt 07 22:02:15 <Alster>	jordie should be available via internet
urt 07 22:02:35 <Alster>	i suggest we check whether our backup actually works
urt 07 22:02:47 <Alster>	and whether everything we need backed up is actually backed up
urt 07 22:03:02 <didleth2>	yhm
urt 07 22:03:10 <didleth2>	ok i will try to conect to jordie
urt 07 22:03:49 <Alster>	oh, something else i need to announce regarding backups: i may have much limited bandwidth starting january 21. so may no longer be able to provide backup space via jordie. :-/
urt 07 22:03:52 <didleth2>	ok im in jordie now
urt 07 22:04:01 <didleth2>	should i make some screen?
urt 07 22:04:01 <Alster>	it depends on the deal i can make with my isp
urt 07 22:04:15 <Alster>	didleth2: yes, unless there already is a running screen session
urt 07 22:04:50 <didleth2>	there is no
urt 07 22:04:53 <Alster>	'screen -ls' lists running screen sessions for the current user
urt 07 22:04:57 <Alster>	ok
urt 07 22:04:58 <didleth2>	should i create the new one?
urt 07 22:05:03 <Alster>	yes please
urt 07 22:05:28 <didleth2>	with sudo?
urt 07 22:05:33 <Alster>	yes
urt 07 22:06:01 <didleth2>	ok
urt 07 22:06:04 <didleth2>	done
urt 07 22:06:26 <didleth2>	(22:03:48) Alster: oh, something else i need to announce regarding backups: i may have much limited bandwidth starting january 21. so may no longer be able to provide backup space via jordie. :-/
urt 07 22:06:42 <Alster>	i also talked to harc during ccc and he said he prefers reading the logs over taking part in our meetings in most cases since it is currently better for him.
urt 07 22:07:01 <Alster>	which is fine with me
urt 07 22:07:12 <txopi>	key error
urt 07 22:07:20 <txopi>	i will try to conect from kosmos
urt 07 22:07:42 <Alster>	hmm, the key should not have changed, are you connecting on the right port?
urt 07 22:08:01 <txopi>	60002
urt 07 22:08:16 <txopi>	i have saved the config at .ssh/config so it should work...
urt 07 22:08:28 <didleth2>	its ok Alster - i belive the more important think is to have backups from the last years, and you are doing a very lot of to us - we will just to find something another, but i belive if we have backups till 21.01 is a big backup and we should be happy becouse of this
urt 07 22:09:09 <Alster>	60002 is correct, txopi 
urt 07 22:09:35 <txopi>	Permissions 0644 for '/home/txopi/.ssh/id_dsa' are too open.
urt 07 22:09:59 <didleth2>	atena just remember how to connect - i will to lock to this in some time, i'm not sure or its secure to remember this
urt 07 22:10:09 <txopi>	-rw-r--r-- 1 txopi txopi 253 Jan  7 22:07 .ssh/config
urt 07 22:10:15 <didleth2>	txopi: didnt you change tour ssh key maybe?
urt 07 22:10:18 <Alster>	didleth2: i can provide another space, actually i think it's already setup. try to ssh to 'salt' as root from kosmos
urt 07 22:10:47 <Alster>	txopi: 644 is definately more than you want on your private ssh key
urt 07 22:10:56 <didleth2>	salt in this same host like jordie?
urt 07 22:11:05 <Alster>	didleth2: no
urt 07 22:11:11 <Alster>	different network
urt 07 22:11:28 <txopi>	i am in
urt 07 22:11:33 <txopi>	from my desktop
urt 07 22:11:41 <txopi>	i will fix kosmos later
urt 07 22:12:36 <Alster>	txopi: are you saying root@kosmos cannot connect to jordie via ssh currently because of a fingerprint mismatch?
urt 07 22:13:05 <txopi>	no, from txopi@kosmos
urt 07 22:13:09 <Alster>	if that's the case backups will likely have failed
urt 07 22:13:13 <Alster>	ah ok
urt 07 22:14:16 <txopi>	i'm sorry, i don't remember the screen command
urt 07 22:14:19 <Alster>	ok i just verified that root@kosmos is able to connect to jordie and salt fine
urt 07 22:14:26 <Alster>	sudo screen -x
urt 07 22:14:28 <didleth2>	wait
urt 07 22:14:30 <txopi>	ah
urt 07 22:14:32 <didleth2>	i'm conect from atena
urt 07 22:14:35 <didleth2>	not from kosmos
urt 07 22:14:38 <didleth2>	i will try from kosmos
urt 07 22:14:52 <txopi>	i am in
urt 07 22:15:42 <Alster>	but there's isnt much space left on salt
urt 07 22:15:59 <Alster>	anyway, back to jordie
urt 07 22:16:10 <txopi>	salt? i don't understand what you are talking
urt 07 22:16:41 <Alster>	<Alster> didleth2: i can provide another space, actually i think it's already setup. try to ssh to 'salt' as root from kosmos
urt 07 22:16:54 <Alster>	it's another backup server
urt 07 22:17:22 <Alster>	we can setup another backup to this location later
urt 07 22:17:41 <txopi>	ah
urt 07 22:17:43 <Alster>	for now, let's check whether the backups on jordie are looking good and complete
urt 07 22:18:04 <txopi>	ok
urt 07 22:18:13 <txopi>	didleth, you are in the screen session?
urt 07 22:18:28 <didleth2>	on yordie yes, from atena not from kosmos
urt 07 22:18:29 <didleth2>	its bad?
urt 07 22:18:30 <Alster>	if any of you feels like setting up backups to salt outside of the skill sharing sessions, you are welcome to do so 
urt 07 22:18:50 <Alster>	didleth2: that's fine
urt 07 22:19:07 <didleth2>	from kosmos i failed to conect to
urt 07 22:19:21 <Alster>	kosmos is having bandwidth issues again
urt 07 22:19:24 <didleth2>	(but i was not triing as a root)
urt 07 22:20:05 <Alster>	didleth2: do you read something on screen?
urt 07 22:20:07 <txopi>	i thought we were going to work on jordie, not salt
urt 07 22:20:47 <txopi>	when jordie's backups are working well and we understood all the tools and elements, we can put another backup server if we want
urt 07 22:20:48 <Alster>	txopi: yes, we work on jordie today
urt 07 22:21:09 <txopi>	to start to server backups and don't finish anyone is not logical for me
urt 07 22:21:13 <txopi>	ah, ok
urt 07 22:21:48 <Alster>	txopi: this is my idea, too. sorry to have caused irritations.
urt 07 22:22:03 <txopi>	i'm still waiting to hey_neken from mundurat to put another backup server (the only server not facilitated by Alster :-))
urt 07 22:22:12 <Alster>	i assume didleth2 is not following the screen
urt 07 22:22:18 <txopi>	Alster, no irritations!
urt 07 22:22:27 <Alster>	;-) ok cool
urt 07 22:22:32 <txopi>	ok
urt 07 22:22:50 <Alster>	txopi: what's the last 2 lines you see in your screen session?
urt 07 22:23:45 <didleth2>	Alster: yes no idea why
urt 07 22:23:50 <txopi>	yes, w and #
urt 07 22:23:51 <Alster>	a dot!
urt 07 22:24:00 <txopi>	also :-)
urt 07 22:24:12 <txopi>	no its not a dot!
urt 07 22:24:19 *	txopi is joking :-)
urt 07 22:24:24 <Alster>	oh it magically mutated
urt 07 22:24:41 <didleth2>	:-/
urt 07 22:24:51 *	didleth2 is trying to conect screen again
urt 07 22:24:51 <Alster>	didleth2: you need a working internet connection at some point...
urt 07 22:25:15 <Alster>	for now, let's do it as usually, let's copy and paste stuff here
urt 07 22:25:17 <didleth2>	grrrr...
urt 07 22:25:24 <didleth2>	i hate this i hat this i hate this
urt 07 22:25:52 <didleth2>	my internet conection is ok, but since some time a have problem with freeze-shell-session when i'm login in internet-server
urt 07 22:26:11 <didleth2>	like kosmos, jordie, my-clons-irssi-session or another
urt 07 22:26:17 <didleth2>	its freeze again
urt 07 22:26:43 <txopi>	what a pity :-(
urt 07 22:26:52 <Alster>	root@jordie:~# pwd          
urt 07 22:26:52 <Alster>	/home/didleth
urt 07 22:26:52 <Alster>	root@jordie:~# # looks like this is the wrong directory, i'll start a new screen session as root
urt 07 22:27:44 <Alster>	ok, please rejoin
urt 07 22:27:52 <Alster>	sudo screen -x
urt 07 22:29:19 <Alster>	txopi, didleth2 ?
urt 07 22:29:37 <didleth2>	ok i will try turn off shell and turn on it again
urt 07 22:29:45 <txopi>	sorry, i was out from keyboard
urt 07 22:29:47 <Alster>	ok, txopi rejoined
urt 07 22:30:33 <Alster>	welcome didleth
urt 07 22:30:37 <didleth2>	the another thing i worry about
urt 07 22:30:43 <didleth2>	is: logs are avaliable
urt 07 22:30:49 <didleth2>	that what we see on screen not
urt 07 22:31:02 <Alster>	true
urt 07 22:31:10 <didleth2>	so we couldnt remember what we was doing if we will want to remember something
urt 07 22:31:19 <Alster>	i'll paste everything here anyway so that you can read it, didleth2 
urt 07 22:31:33 <Alster>	we could 'script' what we do
urt 07 22:31:35 <didleth2>	ok, thx Alster - you can paste me in private massage
urt 07 22:31:45 <Alster>	also, there is ~/.bash_history
urt 07 22:31:49 <didleth2>	to not make a mess in room
urt 07 22:31:53 <txopi>	didleth, this a practical session. in this case, not all will be readable in the logs
urt 07 22:31:59 <didleth2>	bash history sounds great for me
urt 07 22:32:57 <txopi>	didleth, they are just the command executed, not the result's you see in the screen, neither the changes you do with vi, etc.
urt 07 22:33:10 <didleth2>	txopi: i know, but i know to understand this, and whell shell is frozen, i can see only part of this - so if you write for exaplme 100 lines of text, i can se the first 10, and tha freez, and tahn for example 50-100
urt 07 22:33:22 <didleth2>	and i dont know what was between them
urt 07 22:33:30 <Alster>	the advantage of 'script' over bash hostory is that bith commands issued and output printed by the commands are retained.
urt 07 22:33:47 <Alster>	ah, txopi just said the same thing
urt 07 22:34:08 <didleth2>	ok
urt 07 22:34:11 <Alster>	so script is good for didleth in this case
urt 07 22:34:38 <txopi>	aha
urt 07 22:34:40 <txopi>	i see
urt 07 22:34:49 <txopi>	interesting tool
urt 07 22:35:01 <txopi>	i didn't know it
urt 07 22:36:10 <Alster>	oops this is german, sorry
urt 07 22:36:17 <txopi>	don't worry
urt 07 22:36:32 <didleth2>	Alster: it can be on german ; )
urt 07 22:36:49 <didleth2>	anyway - i'm on screen - did someone wroten something?
urt 07 22:37:56 <txopi>	Alster, is writing
urt 07 22:38:30 <txopi>	he executed script to save the commands for you
urt 07 22:38:37 <Alster>	ok, that's better
urt 07 22:38:39 <txopi>	and now is changing the locales to english
urt 07 22:38:55 <txopi>	script -f -a skill-sharing-session_2010-01-07.script
urt 07 22:39:07 <txopi>	jordie:~# script -f -a skill-sharing-session_2010-01-07.script
urt 07 22:39:07 <txopi>	Script started, file is skill-sharing-session_2010-01-07.script
urt 07 22:39:12 <txopi>	ok
urt 07 22:39:28 <Alster>	this makes sure everything we do now will get logged in this file
urt 07 22:39:46 <didleth2>	ok, sorry for problem - no idea why its happend, internet connection is ok, only by shall it works not like it should be
urt 07 22:41:36 <txopi>	jordie:/backup# ls -lah extracted-backup/
urt 07 22:41:44 <txopi>	Alster, what was extracted backup?
urt 07 22:42:00 <txopi>	ups, you deleted it
urt 07 22:42:06 <Alster>	so i'm looking through the files stored on jordie and cleaning up a little
urt 07 22:42:24 <Alster>	extracted-backup was a copy of a database dump i had extracted
urt 07 22:42:24 <txopi>	ah, ok
urt 07 22:42:40 <Alster>	i had done this to check wheth it actually contains and how it was created
urt 07 22:42:59 <Alster>	i talked about this in an earlier email, i think
urt 07 22:43:32 <Alster>	where i realized the database dump tool creates different database dumps from the one in backupninja
urt 07 22:43:45 <txopi>	ah, i remember now
urt 07 22:44:10 <txopi>	and you explained why backupninja makes smaller dumps and what it means
urt 07 22:44:17 <txopi>	ok
urt 07 22:44:35 <Alster>	the 2009-12-18 directory contains a one time backup of the database dumps
urt 07 22:44:44 <txopi>	so you have used backupninja already at kosmos to make and incremental backup to jordie?
urt 07 22:44:48 <Alster>	yes exactly txopi 
urt 07 22:45:21 <Alster>	 /backup/kosmos contains the backups created by backupninja+
urt 07 22:45:37 <txopi>	ok
urt 07 22:47:20 <Alster>	i'm now looking at the files backupninja has created
urt 07 22:47:29 <txopi>	aha
urt 07 22:48:10 <didleth2>	i belive\\
urt 07 22:48:19 <txopi>	you have used backupninja just for the dumps, also for mir's static contents, more directories?
urt 07 22:49:10 <Alster>	i don't think backupninja is setup to copy database dumps currently 
urt 07 22:49:17 <txopi>	i don't know where are the backups created by backupninja
urt 07 22:49:34 <Alster>	we are currently looking at them
urt 07 22:50:11 <txopi>	ok, i had the doubt that perhaps you were showing them to me 8-)
urt 07 22:50:58 <Alster>	rdiff-backup stores a copy of the latest files just as they are, this is actually what we were looking at a few minutes ago
urt 07 22:51:22 <Alster>	now the rdiff-backup-data directory stores the incremental changes
urt 07 22:51:39 <Alster>	as well as some other information such as when which incremental change was done etc
urt 07 22:51:50 <Alster>	and file ownership and the like
urt 07 22:51:52 <txopi>	aha
urt 07 22:52:16 <txopi>	and how you choose witch information backup? with menus? with a conf file?
urt 07 22:53:13 <Alster>	with a conf file. good point, i have not explained this at all, yet
urt 07 22:53:34 <Alster>	let's have a short look at the log file
urt 07 22:53:46 <txopi>	ok
urt 07 22:54:38 <didleth2>	wow, i see something now, is a wonder! ;P
urt 07 22:54:50 <Alster>	we can see the last backup took place at january 5
urt 07 22:55:11 <didleth2>	 /not anymore - but it was so beatyfull ;]
urt 07 22:55:27 <Alster>	that's because i had to take jordie offline last night, attempting to switch vom xen to kvm virtualization
urt 07 22:55:52 <Alster>	jordie is online again today, so the next backup should succeed tonight
urt 07 22:56:05 <txopi>	ah
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	--------------[ Session statistics ]--------------
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	StartTime 1262649651.00 (Tue Jan  5 00:00:51 2010)
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	EndTime 1262650652.05 (Tue Jan  5 00:17:32 2010)
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	ElapsedTime 1001.05 (16 minutes 41.05 seconds)
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	SourceFiles 388896
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	SourceFileSize 18984280997 (17.7 GB)
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	MirrorFiles 388753
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	MirrorFileSize 21786136746 (20.3 GB)
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	NewFiles 144
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	NewFileSize 4671703 (4.46 MB)
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	DeletedFiles 0
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	DeletedFileSize 0 (0 bytes)
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	ChangedFiles 753
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	ChangedSourceSize 72651771 (69.3 MB)
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	ChangedMirrorSize 72010199 (68.7 MB)
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	IncrementFiles 910
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	IncrementFileSize 215567 (211 KB)
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	TotalDestinationSizeChange 5528842 (5.27 MB)
urt 07 22:56:24 <txopi>	Errors 0
urt 07 22:56:54 <txopi>	--------------------------------------------------
urt 07 22:57:27 <Alster>	144 files have been added in the monitored directories on kosmos between january 5 and january 4, totalling to 4.46 MB
urt 07 22:57:48 <txopi>	aha
urt 07 22:57:54 <didleth2>	yhm
urt 07 22:59:00 <Alster>	753 files have been changed in the monitored directories on kosmos between january 5 and january 4, totalling to 211 KB
urt 07 22:59:40 <Alster>	no files have been deleted on in the monitored directories on kosmos between january 5 and january 4, totalling to 0 bytes
urt 07 23:00:28 <Alster>	so 4.46 MB + 211 KB + meta data = 5.27 MB data needed to be transferred on january 5
urt 07 23:00:46 <Alster>	really not much :)
urt 07 23:00:58 <didleth2>	seems bad :-/
urt 07 23:01:05 <Alster>	on the other hand this means something is missing
urt 07 23:01:06 <Alster>	yes
urt 07 23:01:24 <txopi>	why?
urt 07 23:01:38 <didleth2>	its to wenig
urt 07 23:01:45 <txopi>	if they are just the static contents from imc-pl and imc-eh, it can be ok
urt 07 23:01:46 <didleth2>	to short? to small?
urt 07 23:01:53 <Alster>	it's less than i would have expected, though not MUCH less
urt 07 23:02:00 <Alster>	i think we 'only' miss the dumps, but we can check this now.
urt 07 23:02:19 <txopi>	imc-eh has been more quiet this days
urt 07 23:02:23 <didleth2>	:-/ so you thing its everythnig?
urt 07 23:02:42 <Alster>	oops there is actually an entry for january 6th in the backup log, i somehow missed this
urt 07 23:03:13 <didleth2>	blah, i hate the 6th january
urt 07 23:03:19 <Alster>	but it was at 00:00 o'clock on january 6, so one day was not backed up yet
urt 07 23:03:46 <txopi>	12.4 MB this time
urt 07 23:03:59 <didleth2>	Alster: maybe becouse jordie was offline?
urt 07 23:04:12 <Alster>	yes didleth2 
urt 07 23:04:30 <Alster>	that's why nothing was transferred on january 7 00:00
urt 07 23:05:10 <Alster>	it's now january 7 23:04 so the next transfer will be january 8 00:00 so in about an hour
urt 07 23:05:49 <txopi>	aha
urt 07 23:05:58 <Alster>	we have reached my time limit. but i would prefer to ignore it and continue looking into how backupninja is configured
urt 07 23:06:03 <Alster>	would this be ok with you?
urt 07 23:06:34 <txopi>	if you want Alster, is ok for me
urt 07 23:06:47 <Alster>	didleth2: how about the dog and it's owner?
urt 07 23:07:03 <didleth2>	i'm sorry but i'm not feel usefull right now... i mean no ide how i could help and not spoilt something
urt 07 23:07:51 <Alster>	didleth2: i'm afraid i cannot help you fixing the internet access form here...
urt 07 23:07:54 <didleth2>	Alster: about it's owner, i didn't find any yet... do you want to have a dog?:D 
urt 07 23:07:58 <didleth2>
urt 07 23:08:09 <didleth2>	(my dogs pictures)
urt 07 23:08:16 <Alster>	hehe, no thnks. i prefer bed bugs
urt 07 23:08:53 <didleth2>	Alster: you can come here if it would be helpful ;D
urt 07 23:08:54 <Alster>	so i'm starting another screen session on kosmos and will also run 'script' there
urt 07 23:09:01 <didleth2>	anyway - can i help?
urt 07 23:09:13 <didleth2>	yhm, ok, thx and sorry for problem
urt 07 23:10:07 <txopi>	cute dog :-)
urt 07 23:10:18 <Alster>	there's no need for help right now, it's just that you cannot follow what we're doing in real time. whichis not too problematic, since we record it
urt 07 23:10:28 <didleth2>	txopi: dou you want her? she is to adoption :D
urt 07 23:10:31 <txopi>	didleth, i sorry for you, for not following the screen :-(
urt 07 23:11:01 <didleth2>	txopi: its ok - I only have to find a reason - i dont think its internet
urt 07 23:11:08 <txopi>	didleth2, no thanks. i'm animal enough :-P
urt 07 23:11:17 <didleth2>	:-/
urt 07 23:12:01 <didleth2>	next tim e  maybe i will try to join from lodyseusz
urt 07 23:12:03 <txopi>	soon i will have a son and i will be busy enough with him...
urt 07 23:12:08 <didleth2>	and see or its this same
urt 07 23:12:27 <didleth2>	congratulations txopi :]
urt 07 23:12:30 <Alster>	kosmos:/root/skill-sharing-session_2010-01-07_kosmos.script is where we're logging to now
urt 07 23:12:33 <txopi>	lodyseusz is another computer in the same place/connection?
urt 07 23:12:40 <didleth2>	odyseusz
urt 07 23:12:45 <didleth2>	is my old laptop
urt 07 23:12:52 <didleth2>	i wrote from him yesterday
urt 07 23:13:06 <didleth2>	but he is slowly and not-secured
urt 07 23:13:16 <didleth2>	its with 8.10 without upgrate
urt 07 23:13:59 <txopi>	i joined the screen at kosmos
urt 07 23:14:03 <didleth2>	so yes, he is in this same locatiomn
urt 07 23:15:38 <txopi>	perhaps the problem is you internet service provider
urt 07 23:16:04 <didleth2>	maybe, but the sites in the browser arent slowly
urt 07 23:16:12 <txopi>	if you browse ok, perhaps other ports have limited bandwith or something like that...
urt 07 23:16:18 <didleth2>	and how to say- no for exaple i see what you write in screen
urt 07 23:16:27 <didleth2>	but sometimes its just freezen
urt 07 23:16:36 <didleth2>	yhm, maybe
urt 07 23:16:56 <didleth2>	should i take odyseusz and check for this?
urt 07 23:17:35 <Alster>	kosmos:~# ls /usr/share/doc/backupninja/examples/
urt 07 23:17:36 <Alster>	backupninja.conf  example.makecd  example.rdiff  example.sys
urt 07 23:17:36 <Alster>	example.dup       example.mysql     example.trac
urt 07 23:17:36 <Alster>	example.ldap      example.pgsql   example.svn
urt 07 23:17:36 <Alster>	kosmos:~# # these are examples for so-called 'backupninja handlers'.
urt 07 23:17:37 <Alster>	kosmos:~# # each of these handlers handles some part of the overall backup process. 
urt 07 23:17:39 <Alster>	kosmos:~# # if you need to backup a mysql database, you would use the example.mysql, copy it to /etc/backup
urt 07 23:17:41 <Alster>	backup.d/         backupninja.conf  
urt 07 23:17:43 <Alster>	kosmos:~# # if you need to backup a mysql database, you would use the example.mysql, copy it to /etc/backup.d/ and modify it to fit your needs.                
urt 07 23:17:46 <Alster>	kosmos:~# # this just creates local database dumps, which you need to copy to a remote location to actually back them up. the 'example.rdiff' handler configuration can be copied to the /etc/backup.d/ directory, too, and you can adjust it to create backups with rdiff-backup this way.
urt 07 23:19:25 <Alster>	kosmos:/etc/backup.d# ls
urt 07 23:19:25 <Alster>	10_systeminfo.sys  90_jordie.rdiff
urt 07 23:19:25 <Alster>	kosmos:/etc/backup.d# 
urt 07 23:19:48 <Alster>	these are the only backupninja handlers we use right now
urt 07 23:20:20 <Alster>	.sys means it will make a local copy of some important system files
urt 07 23:20:23 <txopi>	didleth2, it would be interesting if you try to connect to a server into poland to see if you have the same problems or not, and also to connect from thouse machines but with another connection (friends home...)
urt 07 23:20:29 <txopi>	but i know it is not easy
urt 07 23:20:49 <Alster>	.rdiff means it will ryn an rdiff-backup to a remote location
urt 07 23:20:55 <didleth2>	i can just join from odyseusz - now?
urt 07 23:21:08 <didleth2>	now atena works
urt 07 23:21:17 <didleth2>	i mean i see screen
urt 07 23:21:25 <didleth2>	i take odyseusz
urt 07 23:21:26 <Alster>	congratulations
urt 07 23:21:36 <Alster>	:)
urt 07 23:22:01 <didleth2>	no i see nothing - but maybe nothing new happens
urt 07 23:22:08 <didleth2>	Pnow not no
urt 07 23:22:15 <didleth2>	*now
urt 07 23:23:02 <Alster>	the numbers in front of the files in /etc/backup.d/ define in which order these handlers are executed
urt 07 23:23:23 <txopi>	Alster, the extensions are important or just to help what the files mean (so the real important is the content)?
urt 07 23:24:04 <Alster>	since we want the rdiff-backup handler to also copy the local copy of the system infos, we need to gather the system infos first (10) and run the rdiff-backup handler later (90)
urt 07 23:24:08 <txopi>	i understand numbers, is the same method as /etc/rcX.d/
urt 07 23:24:09 <didleth2>	txopi: Alster would be dangerous to join to kosmos from odyseusz as a root? 
urt 07 23:24:48 <Alster>	txopi: yes the file extensions do matter, backupninja will treat these files differently.
urt 07 23:25:19 <Alster>	didleth2: it won't work to connect to root@kosmos, since this is disabled
urt 07 23:25:29 <txopi>	have you showed the content of the files already or not? (i wonder what is the content)
urt 07 23:25:43 <didleth2>	Alster: i meaned sudo screen
urt 07 23:25:44 <Alster>	txopi: that'S next
urt 07 23:25:54 <txopi>	Alster, ok
urt 07 23:25:54 <didleth2>	ferom didleth@kosmos
urt 07 23:26:00 <Alster>	i'm just wondering whether everyone is ready to continue
urt 07 23:26:13 *	txopi is ready
urt 07 23:26:13 <didleth2>	but from odyseusz which is not secured
urt 07 23:27:03 <didleth2>	the last letters on screen are *ys a ?
urt 07 23:27:22 <Alster>	didleth2: i don't understand what you mean. are you asking whether it's safe to ssh from odyseusz to kosmos, and then run 'sudo screen -x'
urt 07 23:27:25 <Alster>	?
urt 07 23:27:30 *	txopi wonders if you got the email i send to you with my new gnupg public key and if you used it to verify the sign of the email
urt 07 23:27:58 <txopi>	Alster, i think that is what didleth2 is asking
urt 07 23:28:05 <didleth2>	Alster: yes - tha I mean - I'm afraid or someone can hack kosmos from odyseusz?
urt 07 23:28:15 <Alster>	didleth2: if so, this is as secure as anything else you do from odyseusz
urt 07 23:28:31 <txopi>	last line in the kosmos' screen:
urt 07 23:28:40 <txopi>	kosmos:/etc/backup.d# less 10_systeminfo.sys a
urt 07 23:28:51 <didleth2>	yhm so i see it on atena
urt 07 23:29:16 <txopi>	congratulations didleth2
urt 07 23:29:42 <Alster>	didleth2: your security token is the the ssh private key you had on atena. if atena is more secured than odyseusz then you lost this increased security by the time you copied your ssh private key to it.
urt 07 23:29:55 <txopi>	if my theory is right the screen for you will frize again when Alster writes more :-/
urt 07 23:30:19 <didleth2>	Alster: well.... i belive i had a ssh-key to kosmos in odyseusz
urt 07 23:30:26 <Alster>	txopi: i received your email but did not actually read it yet, sorry
urt 07 23:30:59 <txopi>	Alster, ok
urt 07 23:31:58 <Alster>	didleth2: your access to root on kosmos (via sudo) is as secure as the key stored on the least secure computer you have
urt 07 23:32:10 <didleth2>	:-/
urt 07 23:32:33 <didleth2>	i have to change ssh key in the weekend
urt 07 23:32:39 <Alster>	+ sudo password + ssh key password
urt 07 23:33:07 <Alster>	these are additional security measures which increase overall security
urt 07 23:33:27 <txopi>	if you don't have a keylogger installed in the first computer...
urt 07 23:33:37 <didleth2>	yhm, i write 'change ssh key' in my to do liste
urt 07 23:33:50 <Alster>	txopi: right :)
urt 07 23:33:58 <Alster>	ok, can we go on then?
urt 07 23:34:03 <didleth2>	yhm
urt 07 23:34:04 <txopi>	yes
urt 07 23:34:45 <Alster>	lets have a look at kosmos:/etc/backup.d/10_systeminfo.sys
urt 07 23:35:34 <Alster>	hmm, not very helpful unless we can readup elsewhere what it means
urt 07 23:36:14 <Alster>	this backupninja handler configuration file instructs the 'sys' backupninja handler to make a local copy of this:
urt 07 23:36:58 <txopi>	read up = study
urt 07 23:37:06 <Alster>	* the state of all known packages (installed, half installed, deleted but configuration files remaining, purged (deleted + configuratio files removed) etc.)
urt 07 23:37:23 <Alster>	* the partition table
urt 07 23:38:01 <Alster>	* the partition table as seen by the DOS compatible 'fdisk' command 
urt 07 23:38:28 <Alster>	* information on the hardware of this server
urt 07 23:39:03 <Alster>	this information is stored in /var/backups
urt 07 23:40:48 <Alster>	some other important files are stored there, too, such as a backup copy of the console passwords file
urt 07 23:41:27 <Alster>	but these are not stored there by backupninja but by some other mechanism not related to backupninja
urt 07 23:42:40 <Alster>	however, the aptitude.pkgstates* debconfsel* dpkg* hardware.txt partitions* sysreport.txt files are created by the 'sys' handler of backupninja
urt 07 23:42:58 <Alster>	they can help you recover your operating system in case it gets broken
urt 07 23:43:31 <Alster>	so, now for the 90_jordie.rdiff file
urt 07 23:44:35 <Alster>	this is a configuration file for the rdiff-backup backupninja handler which is supposed to make incremental backups of given directories to a remote location
urt 07 23:45:15 <txopi>	aha
urt 07 23:45:24 <Alster>	can we go over these options one by one?
urt 07 23:47:20 <txopi>	what a long file! i thought it was the general conf file (/etc/backupninja.conf)
urt 07 23:47:23 <didleth2>	'go over' - you mean besprechen ord abschliesen?
urt 07 23:47:37 <Alster>	'go over' = besprechen
urt 07 23:47:39 <txopi>	take a look?
urt 07 23:47:49 <didleth2>	we have only 13  minutes
urt 07 23:48:20 <txopi>	perhaps we can just take a look to the not commented options
urt 07 23:48:26 <txopi>	they are few
urt 07 23:48:45 <didleth2>	yhm, ok
urt 07 23:48:47 <txopi>	as you want Alster 
urt 07 23:48:49 <Alster>	hmm, i think the options with two hashes in the beginning of a line are remarks, those with a single hash in the beginning are interpreted by backupninja, and all others are directly interpreted by rdiff-backup
urt 07 23:48:57 <Alster>	but i don't recall exactly
urt 07 23:49:03 <txopi>	at 00:00 i need to go to sleep
urt 07 23:49:39 <txopi>	sure?
urt 07 23:49:57 <txopi>	usually you have ## for text, explanations
urt 07 23:50:07 <txopi>	and # for options you can activate
urt 07 23:50:07 <Alster>	hmm no actually all lines staring with a hash should be remarks
urt 07 23:50:22 <txopi>	but finally, just the lines without # are interpreted
urt 07 23:50:30 <Alster>	which means i failed to limit bandwidth
urt 07 23:50:52 <txopi>	what option is that?
urt 07 23:51:07 <Alster>	bwlimit
urt 07 23:51:31 <Alster>	right, i didnt set it at the beginning since i wanted to make sure wverything gets transferred within one day
urt 07 23:51:45 <Alster>	but we could activate it now
urt 07 23:52:03 <txopi>	ok, as you want
urt 07 23:52:13 <Alster>	so this config file starts with general information
urt 07 23:52:25 <Alster>	general settings rather
urt 07 23:52:28 <txopi>	<txopi> StartTime 1262649651.00 (Tue Jan  5 00:00:51 2010)
urt 07 23:52:28 <txopi>	<txopi> EndTime 1262650652.05 (Tue Jan  5 00:17:32 2010)
urt 07 23:52:30 <txopi>	<txopi> TotalDestinationSizeChange 5528842 (5.27 MB)
urt 07 23:52:47 <txopi>	anyway, the backups are not taking so long
urt 07 23:52:49 *	Didleth1 ( has joined #kosmos
urt 07 23:53:09 <txopi>	ah, that's because there wasn't any limit?
urt 07 23:53:10 <Alster>	that's because we are not transferring database dumps
urt 07 23:53:24 <Alster>	and because there is no limit currently, yes
urt 07 23:53:41 <txopi>	if you dont set bwlimit, it works as quick as the line itself can, isn't it?
urt 07 23:53:42 <Didleth1>	once time i will just install gentoo on atena if she dont stop to make me angry  (the all atena excepting mouse i freezen)
urt 07 23:53:54 <txopi>	Alster, ok, i understand
urt 07 23:54:10 <Alster>	one of the reasons why bandwidth on kosmos is so bad is because other servers are not setup to limit their bandwidth but eat all available bandwidth, effectively abusing the other servers
urt 07 23:54:44 <Alster>	so we should limit our bandwidth usage, so the other stimeervers can still run backups at the same 
urt 07 23:55:00 <Didleth1>	## let's use 150 kilobit/second (150 x 1024 : 8 = 19200 bytes/second) for now
urt 07 23:55:02 <Alster>	so we should limit our bandwidth usage, so the other servers can still run backups at the same time
urt 07 23:55:04 <Didleth1>	  its the last line on screen?
urt 07 23:55:22 <Alster>	Didleth1: it was the last line some seconds ago
urt 07 23:55:27 <Alster>	but this changes rapidly
urt 07 23:55:53 <Alster>	so besides the general section there are two omre sections in this file
urt 07 23:56:03 <Didleth1>	anyway its tha last in doyseusz
urt 07 23:56:07 <Alster>	namely  [source] and [destination]
urt 07 23:56:14 <Alster>	namely  [source] and [dest]
urt 07 23:56:18 <Alster>	^^ correction
urt 07 23:56:45 <Didleth1>	but it seems beeter that in atena
urt 07 23:56:51 <Alster>	the [source] section defines what is copied, the [dest] section defines where it is copied to
urt 07 23:57:09 <txopi>	ok
urt 07 23:57:34 <Alster>	... and how the connection and authentication to the source or destination is done
urt 07 23:57:55 <Alster>	you can either copy from a remote location to the server running backupninja or the other way around
urt 07 23:59:07 <txopi>	form a remote location?
urt 07 23:59:08 <Alster>	if you copy from a remote server to the one running backupninja this is called 'pulling' backups, if you copy from the server backupninja is on to a remote server (that's what we do) then this is called 'push' backup
urt 07 23:59:33 <txopi>	i understand
urt 08 00:00:05 <Alster>	ok, so we have a remote location defined in [dest] not in [source]
urt 08 00:00:15 <Alster>	that's push-style backups
urt 08 00:01:23 <Alster>	another important thing, the most important since it is not obvious, is how it is defined what is to be copied and what not
urt 08 00:01:46 <Alster>	there is an interesting note above the 'include' lines in the [source] section
urt 08 00:02:05 <Alster>	# A few notes about includes and excludes:
urt 08 00:02:06 <Alster>	# 1. include, exclude and vsinclude statements support globbing with '*'
urt 08 00:02:06 <Alster>	# 2. Symlinks are not dereferenced. Moreover, an include line whose path
urt 08 00:02:06 <Alster>	#    contains, at any level, a symlink to a directory, will only have the
urt 08 00:02:06 <Alster>	#    symlink backed-up, not the target directory's content. Yes, you have to
urt 08 00:02:07 <Alster>	#    dereference yourself the symlinks, or to use 'mount --bind' instead.
urt 08 00:02:09 <Alster>	#    Example: let's say /home is a symlink to /mnt/crypt/home ; the following
urt 08 00:02:11 <Alster>	#    line will only backup a "/home" symlink ; neither /home/user nor
urt 08 00:02:13 <Alster>	#    /home/user/Mail will be backed-up :
urt 08 00:02:15 <Alster>	#      include = /home/user/Mail
urt 08 00:02:17 <Alster>	#    A workaround is to 'mount --bind /mnt/crypt/home /home' ; another one is to
urt 08 00:02:19 <Alster>	#    write :
urt 08 00:02:21 <Alster>	#      include = /mnt/crypt/home/user/Mail
urt 08 00:02:23 <Alster>	# 3. All the excludes come after all the includes. The order is not otherwise
urt 08 00:02:25 <Alster>	#    taken into account.
urt 08 00:03:10 <txopi>	i read it and i think i understand
urt 08 00:03:11 <Alster>	1. basically mens we can use /var/www/in* and it would match both /var/www/india and /var/www/
urt 08 00:03:38 <Alster>	(assuming these directories exist)
urt 08 00:05:19 <Alster>	2. is the important part. it means that if you instruct rdiff-backup to backup /home (and everything within it) but /home is actually a symbolic link (I guess I will need to explain what that is, too?) to /var/home then all the data in /var/home will NOT be backed up
urt 08 00:05:55 <Alster>	kosmos:/etc/backup.d# ls -l /home
urt 08 00:05:55 <Alster>	lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 Sep 22  2003 /home -> /var/home
urt 08 00:05:55 <Alster>	kosmos:/etc/backup.d# 
urt 08 00:06:05 <Alster>	this is exactly the case for kosmos
urt 08 00:06:26 <txopi>	i follow you
urt 08 00:06:50 <txopi>	using vsinclude we can do the same backup to more than one server in the same step?
urt 08 00:07:06 <Alster>	and since there are important files in /home/eh/mir which are actually in /var/home/eh/mir they will not get backed up unless we also explicity ask for it by adding another 'include=' statement in the .rdiff configuration file.
urt 08 00:07:30 <Alster>	include = /var/home/eh/mir
urt 08 00:07:37 <Alster>	luckily someone did this already
urt 08 00:08:09 <txopi>	our kind Alster :-D
urt 08 00:08:46 <Alster>	but this is easily to miss and you may end up with no backups of some of your data without ever noticing it until you need to restore it because your servers' HDDs have dissolved.
urt 08 00:09:01 <txopi>	:-D
urt 08 00:09:03 <Alster>	so better watch out there when defining what to backup and what not to backup
urt 08 00:09:50 <Alster>	so I _think_ we are now backing up all the directories we need to backup BUT the postgresql databases
urt 08 00:10:19 <txopi>	ok
urt 08 00:10:22 <txopi>	i understnad
urt 08 00:10:36 <Didleth1>	sorry I really hav to go with dog now
urt 08 00:10:51 <txopi>	can we stop here? i am very tired and tomorrow i have to wake up early and do a lot of things...
urt 08 00:11:07 <Alster>	ok
urt 08 00:11:24 <txopi>	you don't mind?
urt 08 00:11:26 <Alster>	have a good night you three
urt 08 00:11:30 <Didleth1>	(Atena is freezen - i can see what is wroten on irc, i can move with mouse but nithing more - i just restart her afte session
urt 08 00:11:39 <txopi>	ok
urt 08 00:11:50 <txopi>	i will put the logs of this session tomorrow

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